Did Jeruselm fall in 587 or 586 BCE?

by Doug Mason 277 Replies latest watchtower bible

  • Finkelstein
    Finkelstein

    Neb began his reign much earlier than 605 BCE which is a date based not on Bible Chronology but on NB Chronology.so his humiliation must have occurred after his 18th year when he destroyed Jerusalem in 607 BCE.

    See what I mean about obstructive stupidity ?

    The bible states that Nebuchadnezzar destroyed Jerusalem in his 19th year rein of Babylon.

    So according to the JWS's theology of 607 BCE, that would mean that Nebuchadnezzar took to the throne from his father in 626 BCE. not even close to the recognized and documented year of 605 BCE.

    This surely deserves an award not only for its intellectual dishonesty but its plain stupidity.

    Image result for head up ass

  • scholar
    scholar

    TO WHOM IT MAY CONCERN:

    In recent months it has come to scholar's attention the most recent article published in the scholarly literature on the subject of the Seventy Years. The article deals with the Exile which began with the Fall of Jerusalem and the Return of the Jews under Cyrus, a period of seventy years as foretold by Jeremiah and not ending with the Fall of Babylon as many critics of WT Chronology maintain. The article is titled 'The End of Exile: The Reception of Jeremiah's Prediction of a Seventy-Year Exile' by Steven M Bryan, Journal of Biblical Literature, 2018, Vol.137, no.1, pp.107-126

    Enjoy!!!!

    scholar JW emeritus

  • johnamos
    johnamos
    Quote - reveals the doctrine of the Gentile Times-Like 21:24 – end quote

    Luke 21:24 and they will fall by the edge of the sword and be led captive into all the nations; and Jerusalem will be trampled on by the nations, until the appointed times of the nations are fulfilled

    Daniel 4 and the 7 times has nothing to do with the gentile times. When Jesus said the above words, he said WILL FALL and BE LED CAPTIVE and Jerusalem WILL BE TRAMPLED ON, speaking of it happening in the future tense which proved to be in 70 c.e. And the greater fulfillment of it is connected to the future attack by Gog, which is when Rev 11:2 is fulfilled and what the so-called gentile times/appointed times of the nations are connected to.

    As you may know that last year at the WTS annual meeting they released the Ezekiel book that has the clarification of NO LONGER viewing Christendom as apostate Jerusalem. That means that the ‘disgusting thing' does not come upon Christendom's 'holy place' as previous been taught by the WTS being that they claimed that Jerusalem in Luke 21:20 was Christendom.

    https://wol.jw.org/en/wol/d/r1/lp-e/1102017189?q=%22we+no+longer+refer+to+Christendom+as+the+antitypical+Jerusalem%22&p=par

    Also you may know that at this years annual meeting that they had a clarification on Joel. They now teach that the attack from the locust (the NORTHERNER) is the same as Gog's attack. They previous taught that JW's were the locust attacking Christendom.

    https://www.jw.org/en/news/jw/region/global/2019-Annual-Meeting-Summary/#?insight[search_id]=47a2355d-a862-48d3-beb2-5d4505df7267&insight[search_result_index]=0

    So now knowing that attacks that they applied to Christendom they now apply to themselves...read the following replacing the word ‘Christendom' with ‘WTS' and you will see what and when the true 'appointed times of the nations' are.

    [12-1-70 WT - Down to everlasting desolation will go the antitypical unfaithful Jerusalem (Christendom). Instrumental in executing this judgment of Jehovah God upon her will be the modern-day “disgusting thing that causes desolation,” the Eighth World Power.]

    [7-1-84 WT p.11, 12 par. 16 - In like fashion, Jehovah will bring a heavily armed modern-day Assyrian as his “rod” and “ax” to execute apostate Christendom.]

    [11-15-13 WT – In the near future, Jehovah’s apparently vulnerable people will come under attack from the modern-day “Assyrian,” whose intent will be to wipe them out. The Scriptures refer to that attack as well as the attack of ‘Gog of Magog,’ the attack of “the king of the north,” and the attack of “the kings of the earth.”]

    [12-15-75 WT p.743 - The religious systems of Christendom have constructed magnificent buildings throughout the earth. They have also amassed great wealth in other forms. In many lands, these vast holdings are, by reason of their claimed sacred status, exempt from the assessments and taxes imposed upon businesses in general. Christendom’s “holy place,” however, will soon be invaded and destroyed...The religions of Christendom will be deprived of their field of operation, losing control of everything. No respect will be shown for any of their claimed religious rights.]

    [Restored At Last! p. 187-188 - The nations will “devise an evil plan.” They will seek to vent their long-standing rage and hatred on Jehovah’s worshippers, who will seem vulnerable, as if “living in settlements unprotected by walls, bars, or gates.” The nations will also be eager to “take much spoil and plunder” from those “who are accumulating wealth.” (Ezek. 38:10-12)… The nations may try to disrupt our way of life and stop us from carrying out our worship. To that end, perhaps they will try to interrupt the flow of spiritual food, prevent us from meeting together, break up the unity we enjoy, and stop us from zealously proclaiming God’s message.]

    [Quote from “What the Future Holds” talk; speaking about Gog’s attack –

    “What’s the point? Brothers, we should expect them to despoil us of our human rights. We should expect them to confiscate all of Jehovah’s belongings and close down and take possession of all our branches, factories, depots, kingdom halls, assembly halls, everything. Don’t make any mistake about it. We are all in this together. We have a common enemy.”]

    [Joel 1:10 The field has been despoiled, the ground has gone to mourning; for the grain has been despoiled, the new wine has been dried up, the oil has faded away. 11 Farmers have felt shame; vinedressers have howled, …the harvest of the field has perished.17 Dried figs have shriveled under their shovels. Storehouses have been laid desolate. Barns have been torn down, for the grain has dried up. 18 O how the domestic animal has sighed! How the droves of cattle have wandered in confusion! For there is no pasturage for them. Also, the droves of the sheep have been the ones made to bear guilt. 19 “To you, O Jehovah, I shall call; for fire itself has devoured the pasture grounds of the wilderness, and a very flame has consumed all the trees of the field. 20 The beasts of the field also keep longing for you, because the channels of water have dried up, and fire itself has devoured the pasture grounds of the wilderness.”]

    [6-1-81 WT p.30 - Joel 3 2-16, 19 It tells us why Jehovah is angry with the nations—because of the way they have treated his servants. They scattered them among the nations, making slaves of them. Also, they robbed Jehovah’s temple of its gold, silver and other desirable things, and brought these into their own temples.]

    [Ezekiel 38:13 Is it to do much plundering that you have congregated your congregation, in order to carry off silver and gold, to take wealth and property, to get a very great spoil?”’]

    [Isaiah 10:5 “Aha, the As·syr´i·an, the rod for my anger, and the stick that is in their hand for my denunciation! 6 Against an apostate nation I shall send him, and against the people of my fury I shall issue a command to him, to take much spoil and to take much plunder and to make it a trampling place like the clay of the streets.]

    [Revelation 11:2 But as for the courtyard that is outside the temple sanctuary, cast it clear out and do not measure it, because it has been given to the nations, and they will trample the holy city underfoot for forty-two months.]

    [Ezekiel 39:23 And the nations will have to know that it was because of their error that they, the house of Israel, went into exile, on account of the fact that they behaved unfaithfully toward me, so that I concealed my face from them and gave them into the hand of their adversaries, and they kept falling, all of them, by the sword.’]

    [Luke 21: 20 “However, when you see Jerusalem surrounded by encamped armies, then know that the desolating of her has drawn near. 21 Then let those in Ju·deʹa begin fleeing to the mountains, let those in the midst of her leave, and let those in the countryside not enter into her, 22 because these are days for meting out justice in order that all the things written may be fulfilled. 23 Woe to the pregnant women and those nursing a baby in those days! For there will be great distress on the land and wrath against this people. 24 and they will fall by the edge of the sword and be led captive into all the nations; and Jerusalem will be trampled on by the nations, until the appointed times of the nations are fulfilled.]

    [3-15-61 WT– Isaiah 29:4 reads: “And you must become low so that you will speak from the very earth, and as from the dust your saying will sound low. And like a spirit medium your voice must become even from the earth, and from the dust your own saying will chirp.”… These words show that God’s earthly organization would come under attack and would be reduced to a very low state by the enemies of God’s kingdom. God’s people would be, as it were, crushed to the earth, at the time of Gog’s attack upon them, so that what utterance they made, what vocal sounds they made, would come up from low down in their abasement.]

    [Isaiah 29:2 I will bring distress on Ar´i·el, and there will be mourning and lamentation, and she must become to me as the altar hearth of God. 3 And I must encamp on all sides against you, and I must lay siege to you with a palisade and raise up against you siegeworks.]

    [Luke 19:43 Because the days will come upon you when your enemies will build around you a fortification with pointed stakes and will encircle you and distress you from every side, 44 and they will dash you and your children within you to the ground, and they will not leave a stone upon a stone in you, because you did not discern the time of your being inspected.”]

    [Joel 2: 17 “Between the porch and the altar let the priests, the ministers of Jehovah, weep and say, ‘Do feel sorry, O Jehovah, for your people, and do not make your inheritance a reproach, for nations to rule over them. Why should they say among the peoples: “Where is their God?”’]

    [1-15-04 WT p.20 par.19 – As foretold in Ezekiel chapter 38, Satan will soon complete his role as “Gog of the land of Magog.” This will involve a worldwide attack on Jehovah’s people. It will be an all-out attempt on the part of Satan to break the integrity of God’s loyal ones. As never before, worshipers of Jehovah will need to call upon him earnestly, even crying for help.]

    [Joel 1:14 Proclaim a fast; call for a solemn assembly. Gather the elders together, with all the inhabitants of the land, To the house of Jehovah your God, and cry to Jehovah for help.]

    [Ezekiel 38:15 And you will certainly come from your place, from the remotest parts of the north, you and many peoples with you, all of them riding on horses, a great congregation, even a numerous military force.]

    [10-1-07 WT p.12 - the northerner”​—the insect assault.]

    [Joel 2:25 And I will make compensation to YOU for the years that the locust, the creeping, unwinged locust, and the cockroach and the caterpillar have eaten, my great military force that I have sent among YOU.]

    [Ezekiel 38:16 And you will be bound to come up against my people Israel, like clouds to cover the land. In the final part of the days it will occur, and I shall certainly bring you against my land,]

    [Insight Vol 1 p.487 - The prophet Joel foretold a devastating onslaught by a horde of insects that would desolate the land, mentioning the cha·silʹ last, as the insect that consumes whatever has been left behind by the others. (Joe 1:4) Later, the prophet tells of the time when there will be blessings and forgiveness. The invader (Northerner) will be turned back and compensation made for what the cha·silʹ and the other members of God’s “great military force” have eaten. (Joe 2:25) With respect to such a divinely sent plague of insects, including the cha·silʹ, Solomon prayed that Jehovah would forgive his people if they repented of their sins. (1Ki 8:37-40; 2Ch 6:28-31)]


  • scholar
    scholar

    johnamos

    I say, 'Bring it On'!!

    scholar

  • scholar
    scholar

    Finkelstein

    The problem that you have is that the date 605 BCE although documented by secular Chronology thus far it is falsified by the seventy years of Jeremiah, therefore, the current NB Chronology must be adjusted or 'fine-tuned' by adding an extra twenty years to reconcile such with Bible Chronology.

    scholar JW emeritus

    'a faithful and wise slave'

  • bennyk
    bennyk

    Thanks for mentioning Dr. Bryan's article, "scholar"!

    I hope you will read it someday.

    I especially enjoyed his statement at the bottom of page 110:

    " Jeremiah 25 places the original prophecy in the fourth year of Jehoiakim and the first year of Nebuchadnezzar, that is, just prior to the exile in 605. "

    Perhaps you can "do the maths" and figure out when the nineteenth year of Nebuchadnezzar would be. (You know -- when Jerusalem fell... [Jeremiah 52:12])

  • johnamos
    johnamos
    BRING IT ON

    You have no idea what you read , DO YOU? It clearly shows that Luke 21:24 is connected to Rev 11:2 and is 42-months long...so that does away with connecting Luke 21:24 with the nonsense of 2,520 years (607-1914).

  • scholar
    scholar

    bennyk

    Read it, I have studied it. Obviously, the author has a different chronology but it is the interpretation of the subject that is truly groundbreaking because Bryan asserts that the Exile of seventy years did not end with the Fall of Babylon but the return of the jews under Cyrus which agrees with our understanding of the seventy years. This pioneering scholarship is a deathblow to apostates and other critics of our wondrous Bible Chronology developed historically by the celebrated WT scholars.

    scholar

  • scholar
    scholar

    johnamos

    Luke 21:24 is an expression of the Gentile Times as elucidated by the prophet Daniel recorded in his ch.4 with the tree dream because it is centered on Jerusalem being trampled on as an expression of God's Kingdom so get the facts right.

    scholar

    'a faithful and discreet(prudent) slave'?

  • Finkelstein
    Finkelstein

    The major problem with the JWS theological dating is that it not substantiated by both the Bible’s chronological account or secular archeological findings as well .

    It really comes down to an adherence toward intellectual honesty.

    Self described scholar here hasn’t much legs to stand on on this topic as everyone can see.🤭

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