Scriptures That Don’t Fit WT Theology

by Sea Breeze 76 Replies latest watchtower bible

  • Sea Breeze
    Sea Breeze

    Hey VH,

    I thought Satan ruled all the kings of the earth. Whew, somebody needs to tell JW’s that there was a change in administration after Jesus took back what Satan stole.

  • Sea Breeze
    Sea Breeze

    I thought the dead know nothing at all?

    1 Samuel 28 - Now Samuel was dead, and all Israel had lamented him, and buried him in Ramah,....Then said Samuel, Wherefore then dost thou ask of me, seeing the Lord is departed from thee, and is become thine enemy?

    ...the Lord hath rent the kingdom out of thine hand, and given it to thy neighbour, even to David:

    18 Because thou obeyedst not the voice of the Lord, nor executedst his fierce wrath upon Amalek, therefore hath the Lord done this thing unto thee this day.

    19 Moreover the Lord will also deliver Israel with thee into the hand of the Philistines: and tomorrow shalt thou and thy sons be with me: the Lord also shall deliver the host of Israel into the hand of the Philistines.

    I thought the dead know nothing at all like JW's is true regarding the soul, body and spirit. Oooops.

  • LV101

    Sea Breeze -- WOW - thanks for your time re/the list. Very interesting -- think I'll start w/the KJV Easy Reader on your list.

    Sorry Sea B -- I didn't realize the other list was the 8 recommended ones🤪 - you're very kind/thx

  • Blotty


    I am in the middle on theology if you had bother to read my post you would have seen I wrote:
    "(The holy spirit may well be a person, but its NEVER called a "He")"
    - by this I mean naturally in the Greek text. I couldn't care less about English translations for the most part - the Greek overrules everytime

    When did I state it was the most "accurate"? please quote me saying that - I never did, it is not by far the most accurate - nor is the KJV or NIV, etc..
    NO bible is 100% accurate IMO

    your post is besides the point nor have you answered the question - where is the holy spirit explicitly called "he" via an antecedent?
    Which source would you consider legitimate then? or Greek "master text"?
    "numerous" scholars have said the same thing Daniel Wallace has..

    Bible hub is an evangelical backed website of course it doesn't list the NWT - but ti also doesnt have Dr Goodspeeds bible or James Moffatts or many others I could list. And of course all their bibles will say the same... Its an evangelical website

    I use a wide variety of bibles some listed not on bible hub - however there are scholars who have advocated for the NWT (I can get quotes if you like, that will take a while though) Why don't you go and ask Benjamin kedar Kopfstein (Hebrew professor) or Alan Duthie or Dr Goodspeed ("ask" - more like look up his comment regarding the translation) or any of the other numerous scholars who have had (mostly) good things to say

    A question Curt Steven Mayes (Th.m, thesis, Dallas theological seminary )raises an interesting question:
    "The fact that John often uses e)kei=noj as the equivalent of a personal pronoun (= he or they) may be significant for the Spirit's personality. But the question is, how is the masculine form in this passage to be explained? Is it meant to teach theology or agree with para/klhtoj? Surely the latter is a grammatically sound conclusion."

    (Pronominal Referents and the Personality of the Holy Spirit - footnote 7 of Wallace's paper)

    secondly - "questionable sources"? this is how Greek also works today (mostly) along with many other languages that have "genderised" nouns... (see sources listed in this wikipedia article (ignore the article itself if you like): )

    you jump to conclusions on that last bit..

    also see (all use trinitarian scholars):
    (Daniel Wallace - Greek scholar) (cites trinitarian scholars only)

    Does the Trinity ever make sense - Lesriv spencer

    does the new world translation committee know Greek - Lesriv spencer

  • Blotty

    Sea breeze:

    numerous titles are reused - again you omit important information

    also might be worth looking at this:
    you can go down a massive rabbit hole - your fallacy has come rather unstuck, but ill let you figure that out or sit in denial (Im more inclined to believe scholars, who are not only qualified to talk on this subject but who also can provide actaul proof of what they are saying, Daniel Wallace being a not very good example admittedly)

    you fail to include where God said he was the only savior - Jesus is also a savior, yet savior is also used of humans (same word)

    Jesus is called "the light of the world" (remember Jesus is God) but so are his apostles, are they God too?)

    e.g we can find a clause where Father is used in 2 different sense in John 8
    The Jews say both of these things:

    John 8:39: “. . .Our father is Abraham. . .”

    John 8:41: “. . .we have one Father, God.”

    notice just 2 verses apart the Jews have declared Abraham to be their father, yet there one Father is God.. Is Abraham God? no this is obviously being used in 2 different senses..
    One possibly being idiomatic for teacher or forefather
    and the other because thats what they see God as
    However this does not identify Abraham and God as one and the same.
    (consequently this is a direct parallel to: Acts 5:3,4 - Where the HS is claimed to be called God)

    you can research about the parallels between God and holy spirit - they are used interchangeably a lot of the time because the spirit comes from God (The Father) doesnt make "it" God though

    "I thought Satan ruled all the kings of the earth. Whew, somebody needs to tell JW’s that there was a change in administration after Jesus took back what Satan stole."

    Is Satan God or is Jesus, Satan? - they are called "kings of the earth" in different senses

    The likelyhood the spirit itself raised Jesus from the is weak due to grammatical weaknesses in both Romans 8:11 and the parables clause found in John - in which the holy spirit is never made exempt
    the "of him" clause in Romans 8:11 would not be nessacary - if we take who him refers too we get "spirit of [God]" which adds another logical problem, if the spirit is called why is it being said to be "of [God]" makes "God" sound like a physical location..

  • Sea Breeze
    Sea Breeze


    Please start your own thread. You are off topic.

  • Sea Breeze
    Sea Breeze

    2 Cor. 5: 21

    For he hath made him to be sin for us, who knew no sin; that we might be made the righteousness of God in him.

    But WT says we can't be righteous until we:

    1. Only listen to the GB and do everything they say

    2. Survive the GT

    3. And work for it another 1000 years in the Millinnium

    Romans 8: 1 - Therefore there is now no condemnation for those who are in Christ Jesus.

    Romans 5: 1 Therefore being justified by faith, we have peace with God through our Lord Jesus Christ:

  • LV101

    Sea Breeze: To be clear you're saying Jesus is manipulating the kings or all his actions today being fulfilled -- WT says Jehovah is allowing or dragging them around w/Kings in power coercing actions (Revelation?). Not 'coercing' but Jehovah technically in power or allowing w/Satan the ruler of this 'system of things' -- been long time hate that ole phrase.

    Vanderhoven's scripture in Revelation confirms Jesus in power but Kings of the earth really aren't today?

  • Sea Breeze
    Sea Breeze

    @ LV101 - Satan ruled the world by means of the sin nature that was passed down. After Jesus died, a new creature appeared on the earth. One that had never before been seen. A human being with a dual nature. A fleshly sin nature AND a sinless spirit nature, hence the term born again.

    When I grew up, all I ever heard my family talk about was how Satan was in total control of the governments of the earth. They reasoned: How else could Satan have offerd them to Jesus?

    But here, after Calvary - scripture says Jesus is the ruler of kings.

    Jesus Christ, who is the faithful witness, the firstborn from the dead, and the ruler of the kings of the earth. - Rev. 1: 5

    To what extent he allows them to proceed with wickedness, or cuts short their reign and so forth, I don't know.

    But, one thing is for sure, Jesus is ultimately in total control.

  • Rattigan350

    "Mediator - only for the 144,000?"

    Why does this keep coming up? Why does nobody (but me) understand what that means? It's not that difficult. But people just want and got to have Jesus as their mediator just as they want to and got to go to heaven. It is all about their wants.

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