That's clarity
Nice post Island Man
Lurker trying to gain clarity
by questioningmyfaith 75 Replies latest jw friends
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bobld
Typical JW attitude ORG right,others wrong.If you are happy with WT religion carry on.Many here saw the new light and left the cult.One day your eyes will be opened. -
Island Man
"Why do humans seem to be so unable to rule themselves."
I read in that question, the unstated premise that human society should be problem free, that conditions should be able to be perfect. So let me ask you another question to perhaps highlight that your thinking may be clouded by a false premise that you have accepted without question:
What makes you think that things are supposed to be perfect? Who implanted that idea in your head?
It is only natural and normal for human society to have problems and conflicts to varying degrees given the individual difference that exist from one person to another. Conflict is a normal and natural occurrence. It happens within all other species. Why do you think humans should be exempt?
I will submit to you that the expectation that things should be perfect is borne of religious indoctrination. The JW teaching that man was created perfect in the image of God and problems are the result of man's fall into sin, creates the false idea that the conflicts and problems we face as humans are somehow unnatural and we are a failure as humans if we're unable to permanently end all conflict.
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Simon
To the OP
There are lots of honest and sincere people in the WTS org looking for "the truth" but it doesn't mean that the truth is there to be found.
My only advice would be to read a range of opinions on religion and theology but always with the question of what someone has to gain from their opinion. i.e. are they trying to sell you products or have your worship?
At some point I expect you'll see certain patterns repeated and abused which helps sort out the genuine and sincere searchers from the charlatans looking to make a buck.
Be open minded - what if god was an invention? What if we're highly evolved apes who developed language and writing to pass on knowledge but also certain superstitions.
The answer may be that there are no answers, just intriguing mysteries.
The uncertainty is not as scary as it sounds.
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defender of truth
Great post, Simon.
@questioningmyfaith, I just wanted to say that I hope you did not find my last post too off-putting..
I was not actually accusing you of being a sociopathic person, I was pointing out an apparent contradiction in what you are saying. I hope this makes it a little clearer..
For example:I am not negative towards the WT at all. So honestly I am to concerned with more ad hominem attacks towards the WT because I still love the organization and the people in it.
...The GB has had bad policies in place.
And just one other thing on blood transfusions because I know that is a big one.... I am NOT saying that lives could not be saved with a transfusion.
But if I had the firm faith in god I once had then I would die before accepting blood.
People are responsible for their personal decisions. If someone has full faith in god and they make the decision to turn down a blood transfusion for their god I just don't see the crime there.
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Broken families? Do we live in the world of leave it to beaver? Family break up in all walks of life. Some family members don't speak because of differing political views...
I have come to terms that I'll lose my witness friends and families. But again, I just don't care. I know why they are going to make the decisions that they make.
You and your family have been heavily indoctrinated and repeatedly told:
*Loyalty to God= shun those who elders, following Watchtower guidelines, declare to be DF'd.
*Loyalty to God= You must not have a blood transfusion, based on verses that do not relate to modern medical procedures.
Had you not gained some degree of mental freedom from the Watchtowers propaganda and indoctrination techniques, you would right now be willing to shun a family member who the elders decide is unrepentant of the vile sin of changing a personal belief or even being seen smoking a cigarette for example, and you would be willing to throw your life away based on a scripture that, taken in context, does not even relate to blood transfusions.
You likely would not do these things now. Yet as an indoctrinated JW, you would have.
I believe the advice on what type of person you are supposed to be and how to treat others has made me a better person... (Likable is completely subjective, so I'll leave that).
Do you still think that the Watchtower teachings have been responsible for making you a better person, and taught you how to treat others..?You should be pleased when your family and friends shun you, then.
You should be proud that they are demonstrating the best way to treat those who 'sin', or those we disagree with on matters of faith.
They have been taught well, haven't they?...
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defender of truth
One more point:
So this is my question that I wonder how other people got over certain indoctrinations of JW's.
Many never do. Most never even realise that they were indoctrinated and controlled, from childhood onwards in some cases..
That is why some of us spread what you may call "anti-watchtower" stuff. (Information regarding the effects of Watchtower policies, not Rick Fearon type nonsense..)
Prevention is better than a cure.
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stuffwotifink
In your OP you said
I only mention this because I don't plan on engaging with anyone that just wants to talk bad about the people
andI have already accepted that the WT is wrong about a lot of stuff. It doesn't bother me too much to be honest. I am more concerned with whether or not I believe in god.
But then you only respond about the WT and you ignore any of the numerous people who actually engaged with your 2 queries.
I'm not saying that this makes you a dishonest and snake tongued WT apologist.
It just makes you look like one. -
KiddingMe
Good OP and discussion. Marking for continued reading later. -
OnTheWayOut
I did recently come out to a couple of elders about ALL of my doubts. They were nothing but kind. And one of them I use to always feel had it out for me. They even recommended to me that I continue to serve as an elder.
Let me rephrase what could have gone down.
QMF: "Brothers, I have doubts about [the existence of God/doctrinal matters]."Elders: "Well, we hope we can help you work through it. Meanwhile, you should probably keep delivering speeches from the platform telling people to have no doubts. (In other words, fake it until you come around.)"
Do you see the problem there? The answer would be to stay an elder and work through this. That sounds like the training of a group that is programmed to make sure they don't lose you for your usefulness to them.
From page one:
Do you really think I haven't read the anti-witness info? I just don't care. Every large organization has their own issues.
Even after I figured out that it was a dangerous mind-control cult that wanted the heaviest influence over how members think, I was pretty sure that the pedophile issue was just part of "every large organization." I figured that disgruntled former JW's were just focusing on a few bad apples because I had never been burned personally. But when I looked into the matter, it was the cover-up that got to me and I saw that it was way worse (by percentage) than the Catholic Church. Watchtower procedures of running everything by Headquarters and them asking "Legal" how to try to make these things go away was causing victims to be the least of their concerns and corporation image to be their highest priority. Now money is their highest priority as these lawsuits pour in. And they have members fully convinced, "WTS is doing the right thing and it's just a few greedy apostates whose uncles molested them that are the problem."
Man, as long as they can keep convincing you that it's the few bad apples among the many good ones and not the bad barrel that is the problem, they win.
From page three:
I truly don't care about the anti-wt stuff. I just don't. There isn't a single thing that could convince me that GB is personally responsible for any single death. If someone told me that if I don't give them all of my money that they'll kill themselves and I refused, I wouldn't be guilty of murder. People are responsible for their personal decisions.
That's really not the issue, your "Give me all your money or..." scenario. Can't you see how members of Jonestown were made to think differently than people outside of that group? Can't you see how followers of Charles Manson were made to think differently than everyone else? Can't you see how Mormons are made to think "Only we have the truth so if we are told to wear special underwear, it's normal." ? Jehovah's Witnesses are made to think they should never question whatever the Governing Body says. Even you, free to doubt it, say that it doesn't matter, they are trying to do the right things. If God doesn't exist and the doctrine is all wrong, even you don't see how the members are having difficulty seeing how the organization is damaging their minds.
If someone has full faith in god and they make the decision to turn down a blood transfusion for their god I just don't see the crime there.
No members are deciding on their own to turn down blood. No member is coming up with the idea on their own that they should encourage their 8-year old son or daughter to die without a blood transfusion for their god. But you cannot see how that smacks of Jonestown citizens being told to drink the kool-aid?
Good luck to you.
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Bonsai
QMF,
I hope you find some peace of mind. I can't imagine the stress it must cause to be an elder and an agnostic at the same time. It wasn't easy to admit to my feelings and the evidence that there was no global flood and that humans were walking the earth, making tools, hunting and burying their dead long before the mythical Adam and Eve were supposed to exist. Tsunamis and earthquakes ruined any chance of belief that I could have in a loving god existing. It was only logical then, that an organization that treated my disfellowshipped family members like dirt was the first thing to be thrown out of my life. I have no time for harmful religions that promote intolerance and use familial love to blackmail members into remaining in the religion.