Lurker trying to gain clarity

by questioningmyfaith 75 Replies latest jw friends

  • OnTheWayOut
    I am basically questioning my faith in god.

    That's a great place to start. Congratulations.

    "If there is no god, is there hope for mankind"

    Yes. Humans have multiplied and covered the planet with their kind. They have generally increased their lifespan and will continue to do so. Speaking in terms of evolution, that's success- increasing your numbers and your longevity. All the individual problems that could shorten lifespans eventually- man will probably work them out one day.

    But if you want to compare the hope of working it out one day to the hope that religion promises- some kind of never-ending life, well there really is not anything in reality to compare. But hoping in Santa Claus, no matter how wonderful the hope, just is not reality.

    I am not negative towards the WT at all. ,,,,,,,,,,I still love the organization and the people in it. But that is because I truly believe that in general witnesses are good people that are trying their best to do good.

    Watch your back then. Good people are being misused to enrich the dangerous mind-control cult. Think how much more good 7 or 8 million people could do if they were working toward some real goal in the sense of charity instead of doing what WTS tells them to do. They are, for the most part, good people. I have nothing against individual members except for one or two a-holes.

    So this is my question that I wonder how other people got over certain indoctrinations of JW's.

    Some are kicked out, some awaken while in. But the biggest difference is that we looked for evidence and found it, and most who stay J.W. absolutely refuse to look.

  • Saintbertholdt
    "Many blood brokers use arbitrage to obtain blood cheaply and then sell it all the while using "charitable" drives as the motivating factor."

    Hi Questioningmyfaith,

    Just a couple of things on blood regarding processing costs: 1. The type has to be identified with a cross-match 2. It has to be tested for HIV, HIV-2, Hepatitis B+C, Syphilis, West Nile virus etc. 3. It has to be put in cold storage until used and only after all of these can sub-components be extracted.

    So yes there are profits to be made, but its also not cheap to prepare. Blood donation is just the first step.

  • Billyblobber

    I think that there are good people within the JW organization, and i don't think the Governing Body is as evil as other people here make them out to be, but I still think that if you remove all emotion and look strictly from a "net benefit" basis, Witnesses are hurting people more than they're helping due to many of their rules. If those rules are proven to have no basis, then there is reason to speak out against the organization. Ignoring blood, there are other things that have a huge effect that are basically ignored with a "Jehovah will make up for it like he did with Job in the future" type platitudes.

    - With so few numbers, it's nearly impossible to find TRULY compatible romantic relationships. Most people within -force- relationships with whoever is around, and many people miss out on them completely. This causes a lot of unhappiness in people's lives. The could still get the "afterlife" happiness in other religions that don't force that rule on their followers. This also applies to true friendships - in retrospect, I probably had ONE that wasn't fully surface, and it was a guy that's out now as well.

    - The disfellowshipping rule, based on one scripture that Paul wrote, that goes against the spirit of Jesus' teachings, has caused pain and suffering for innumerable people. It being stretched in relatively recent years to, "anyone who doubts anything the Governing Body says," is a whole different level of control and pressure.

    - If life -is- limited, spending so much time going to multiple meetings a week, assemblies, field service, etc. is a huge waste of it.

    ...and many more things. That's why people are "against" it, above and beyond just living and let living. Any many have emotional reasons, since they're blocked from communicating with beloved family members because of it.

  • Giordano
    questioningmyfaith if that's what you are doing then Caleb has offered you an intelligent perspective.
    Starting with the biggest questions like......... Is there a god? Is the world doomed? Is a difficult place to start.
    Questioning your faith means you are questioning the teachings of the WTBTS and all of the Dogma associated with it.

    I too enjoyed, liked and even loved many of the friends while I associated from the age of 13 to 23. I pioneered after HS then went to serve where the need was great. Held down a variety of positions and lived the life. My problem was that I read books, I questioned, I speculated. The Societies belief structure no longer was able to sustain me. I reasoned my way free.
    Most here will tell you that one has to develop critical thinking skills.
    Those that continue to remain a JW must exercise 'rational ignorance' which means:
    1. Ignorance about an issue is said to be "rational" when the cost of educating oneself about the issue sufficiently to make an informed decision can outweigh any potential benefit one could reasonably expect to gain from that decision.
    This now is the decision you would have to make.......... do you move forward or make a rational decision to stay where you are because there is nothing to be gained.
  • Londo111

    I would encourage you to read Combatting Cult Mind Control by former Moonie Steven Hassan. The first edition did not mention JWs, so it could not be accused of being "anti-Witness".

    I'm not sure if you've read Crisis of Conscience by Raymond Franz. The book is frank, but kind in tone. In fact, I would not classify it as anti-JW because Ray did not hate JWs. There are some subtleties and nuances to these issues that I feel might be missing.

    Personally, I do not hate Jehovah's Witnesses...that is, the individuals. Many, perhaps, all the way up to the top, are doing the best they can given their circumstances. That doesn't mean it is a healthy environment.

    Whether theist or not, overcoming lingering indoctrination takes time. Some of this indoctrination can be in the form of rationalization of the beliefs and practices of the organization. Many people that come from similar high-control groups face this issue.

  • Ucantnome

    the worse thing they have done is wake up people on saturday mornings.

    I think that believing and having faith in the message that we preached had a detrimental effect on my life.

  • DesirousOfChange

    I don't think anyone here believe that the average R&F JWs are "all bad". Sure there are some power-hungry men that seek the authority and position. But most are "good people", just as are most Catholics, or Baptists, or.......etc.

    I'm a born-in. I served as an MS/elder for over 20 years before resigning, yes, I was one of those prominent elders. The religion has changed. The kind, understanding older men (that I remember as a kid) are no longer serving. The elders today are mostly policemen who are there to enforce the rules and clean out the dissenters. If you've ever attended a KM School for elders, then you know this is true. 20% of the time is spent on how to encourage or shepherd the flock. 80% is spent on reviewing the rules for reproving/disfellowshipping. I see the change it the attitude of the average CO as well. The kindly grandpa CO is "out" -- put out to pasture. The new batch of COs are strictly Company Men who are put in place to protect the WTS and its assets.

    When people referred to the Organization as a "cult", I ignored that as people who were really disgruntled and bearing a grudge. After I read Steven Hassan's book "Combatting Cult Mind Control" I realized that the JW model is the posterchild example of how to build a cult and control people. Hassan is writing primarily about the Moonies, but the JWs fit the mold to a "T". It absolutely cannot be by accident. It is by "design".

    I hope there is an Intelligent Design behind all of this. I have a hard time accepting that it is all by "chance". I hope there is a better future for the "good" people. But if you or I had the power and/or ability to fix all the bad that takes place on Earth today, I suspect you would do so. I know I would. I was taught that God had the power and ability. I was also told He has the desire to do so. I see no logical explanation for why He has failed to do so. I just don't accept that talking snake fable and some test (game) being playe out for those in Heaven observing.

    Good luck in your journey!


    The greatest revenge is living a happy & successful life!

  • LostGeneration

    But to say that they contributed to the deaths in Malawi for instance, is just preposterous in my opinion

    Then you need to read up on what really happened there.

    I am curious about what the actual facts are on that last one but I doubt its countless (re Suicides)

    Plenty of stories posted on here and other boards. Easily countless.

    Broken families? Do we live in the world of leave it to beaver? Family break up in all walks of life. Some family members don't speak because of differing political views. I know a lot of witnesses that didn't shun their family members like they should have and some that went overboard.

    Who makes the decision in the "world" not to speak to another family member. The individual. Maybe its justified, maybe its not. In WT world the directive comes from the fuckers in expensive suits who claim to be the Brothers of Christ. Very little latitude is given to the individual in the decision making process, and its backed up by threats from the same bastards who will DF you as well if you associate with your own family.

    even if the GB are a bunch of narcissistic wannabe powerful guys, imho, the worse thing they have done is wake up people on saturday mornings.

    Oh and contributed to more deaths than Jim Jones could even dream of, but I guess that's OK in your world because they are "good peeps"

    I am NOT saying that lives could not be saved with a transfusion.

    So you do get that lives would have been saved, but just before you said the GB was guilty of only one sin, waking people up on Saturday mornings. Caught ya.

  • freemindfade

    You don't think they damage families? tell your witness friends and family you lost your faith in God and see how quick you are kicked to the curb like you never existed.

    I'm not trying to be harsh. You just need to understand their control is not OK.

  • freddo

    Hello qmf,

    You say they do nothing worse than waking folk up on Saturday mornings.

    What about "protecting their image"? By doing this they have instructed their branch legal departments to stop elders bringing accused pedophiles to the relevant authorities (1 Peter 2 v 13 - 18) and this has backfired enormously.

    What about their persistent claiming they can interpret "the generation" and encouraging their followers to give up higher education and career prospects or having a family so as to preach their doctrine of Armageddon "soon, very soon" to others?

    And now they are after the mighty dollar in a way they weren't previously. "Bigger storehouses" "counting the cost" and even "ananias and sapphira" come to mind.

    And Blood? The scriptures say "marry only in the Lord" and they do not disfellowship for that. Why do they count taking blood (or at least the fraction they deem as disallowed) as if you have disassociated yourself? When the context of Act 15 seems to be talking about blood in worship or in eating it? Can blood being sacred because it represents life be more sacred than life it itself?

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