I'm astounded by the UNDER-PATRIOTISM Displayed

by Yerusalyim 54 Replies latest watchtower beliefs

  • Realist
    Realist

    Yeru,

    the critical factor is LOGIC.

    what bush says and what hussein allegedly does is illogical.

    on the other hand the hidden reasons for this war make a lot of sense.

    PS: just wanted to add that patriotism and religion are the main causes for all conflicts! the people fall for this crap since the existence of the human species.

    PPS: TR, you are a goodhearted dreamer...the US is unfortunately not the liberator you want it to be.

    Edited by - realist on 11 February 2003 11:48:32

    Edited by - realist on 11 February 2003 11:50:21

  • Shutterbug
    Shutterbug

    ReubenFine, you are correct, government should never be trusted completly, that is why there is a free press, to hold their feet to the fire.

    However, I am still haunted by the collapse of the two trade tower buildings. I am even more haunted by the photographs of the dead Kurd mother holding her dead daughter. This was a result of the gas attack by the Iraqi army. Saddam, who hates the US and the UK will, I am convinced, launch a similar attack on the US if given a chance. If anyone thinks this despot will not attack the US in a similar fashion, please give my your reasons for thinking in that manner. This is a madman and he is more dangerous left alone than if someone takes him out.

  • Sara Annie
    Sara Annie

    Say what you want about this country, voice your opposition or declare your support for it's actions, sing out in patriotism or rail against the injustice you perceive, laud the president or sneer at his actions, state your case for war, or loudly proclaim your objection to it, but no matter WHAT you do, remember that you are able to do just that because living in America affords you the freedom to do so. Yes, I love this country. But patriotism is not a blanket endorsement of the actions of our government, it is a statement for, and celebration of, the principles this country was founded on that still ring true today. I am a patriot, and I say bring on the objections, the ill-conceived arguments for both sides, the passion for or against the government. Sing out, it's your right as an American. I'll be sending my husband to the middle east in the next few weeks in preservation of the rights of all Americans, whether they support his presence there or not.

    I liked this article and am posting it because no matter what your views on President Bush's statement of upcoming war, this, from an English journalist, is very interesting. For those of you not familiar with the UK's Daily Mirror, this is a notoriously left-wing daily that is normally not supportive of the Colonials across the Atlantic.

    Tony Parsons, Daily Mirror September 11, 2002

    "One year ago, the world witnessed a unique kind of broadcasting -- the mass murder of thousands, live on television. As a lesson in the pitiless cruelty of the human race, September 11 was up there, with Pol Pot's mountain of skulls in Cambodia, or the skeletal bodies stacked like garbage in the Nazi concentration camps. An unspeakable act so cruel, so calculated and so utterly merciless that surely the world could agree on one thing - nobody deserves this fate. Surely there could be consensus: the victims were truly innocent, the perpetrators truly evil. But to the world's eternal shame, 9/11 is increasingly seen as America's comeuppance. Incredibly, anti-Americanism has increased over the last year.

    There has always been a simmering resentment to the USA in this country -- too loud, too rich, too full of themselves and so much happier than Europeans - but it has become an epidemic. And it seems incredible to me. More than that, it turns my stomach. America is this country's greatest friend and our staunchest ally. We are bonded to the US by culture, language and blood. A little over half a century ago, around half a million Americans died for our freedoms, as well as their own. Have we forgotten so soon? And exactly a year ago, thousands of ordinary men, women and children -- not just Americans, but from dozens of countries -- were butchered by a small group of religious fanatics. Are we so quick to betray them? What touched the heart about those who died in the twin towers and on the planes was that we recognized them. Young fathers and mothers, somebody's son and somebody's daughter, husbands and wives, and children, some unborn. And these people brought it on themselves? And their nation is to blame for their meticulously planned slaughter?

    These days you don't have to be some dust-encrusted nut job in Kabul or Karachi or Finsbury Park to see America as the Great Satan. The anti-American alliance is made up of self-loathing liberals who blame the Americans for every ill in the Third World, and conservatives suffering from power-envy, bitter that the world's only superpower can do what it likes without having to ask permission. The truth is that America has behaved with enormous restraint since September 11. Remember, remember. Remember the gut-wrenching tapes of weeping men phoning their wives to say, "I love you," before they were burned alive. Remember those people leaping to their deaths from the top of burning skyscrapers. Remember the hundreds of firemen buried alive. Remember the smiling face of that beautiful little girl who was on one of the planes with her mum. Remember, remember -- and realize that America has never retaliated for 9/11 in anything like the way it could have. So a few al-Qaeda tourists got locked without a trial n Camp X-ray? Pass the Kleenex... So some Afghan wedding receptions were shot up after they merrily fired their semi-automatics in a sky full of American planes? A shame, but maybe next time they should stick to confetti. AMERICA could have turned a large chunk of the world into a parking lot. That it didn't is a sign of strength.

    American voices are already being raised against attacking Iraq - that's what a democracy is for. How many in the Islamic world will have a minute's silence for the slaughtered innocents of 9/11? How many Islamic leaders will have the guts to say that the mass murder of 9/11 was an abomination? When the news of 9/11 broke on the West Bank, those freedom-loving Palestinians were dancing in the street. America watched all of that -- and didn't push the button. We should thank the stars that America is the most powerful nation in the world. I still find it incredible that 9/11 did not provoke all-out war. Not a "war on terrorism." A real war. The fundamentalist dudes are talking about "opening the gates of hell," if America attacks Iraq. Well, America could have opened the gates of hell like you wouldn't believe. The US is the most militarily powerful nation that ever strode the face of the earth. The campaign in Afghanistan may have been less than perfect and the planned war on Iraq may be misconceived. But don't blame America for not bringing peace and light to these wretched countries. How many democracies are there in the Middle East, or in the Muslim world? You can count them on the fingers of one hand -assuming you haven't had any chopped off for minor shoplifting.

    I love America, yet America is hated. I guess that makes me Bush's poodle. But I would rather be a dog in New York City than a Prince in Riyadh. Above all, America is hated because it is what every country wants to be -- rich, free, strong, open, optimistic. Not ground down by the past, or religion, or some caste system. America is the best friend this country ever had and we should start remembering that. Or do you really think the USA is the root of all evil? Tell it to the loved ones of the men and women who leaped to their death from the burning towers. Tell it to the nursing mothers whose husbands died on one of the hijacked planes, or were ripped apart in a collapsing skyscraper. And tell it to the hundreds of young widows whose husbands worked for the New York Fire Department. To our shame, George Bush gets a worse press than Saddam Hussein. Once we were told that Saddam gassed the Kurds, tortured his own people and set up rape-camps in Kuwait. Now we are told he likes Quality Street. Save me the orange center, oh mighty one! Remember, remember, September 11. One of the greatest atrocities in human history was committed against America. No, do more than remember. Never forget.

  • Yerusalyim
    Yerusalyim

    Realist,

    PS: just wanted to add that patriotism and religion are the main causes for all conflicts! the people fall for this crap since the existence of the human species.
    The main causes of war are greed and hatred. Witness Hitler, Stalin, Mao, Ho Chi Min, etc etc etc.
  • ThiChi
    ThiChi

    Don't worry!

    There is no shortage of courageous men and women who understand what we must undertake.

  • D8TA
    D8TA

    Since ( by the title ) I take this post as a counter to mine, I encourage all to read this one in it's entirety ( in which I had made my last statement for those to think about ):

    http://www.jehovahs-witness.com/forum/thread.aspx?id=46373&site=3

    So let's review:

    I make a thread about the Patriot Act/Dept. of Homeland Defense, and show how the U.S. Government and Federal/Local Authorities are abusing it.

    This isn't about Saddam Hussien.

    This isn't about Terrorists.

    This post has NOTHING to do with "those people", and this where many of you are failing in your arguments. I have provided evidence and facts, as to this Patriot Act, that people who ARE NOT terrorists are being affected by this.

    I see people with fear trying to justify against the points presented, as necessary means. You've proven by your own reponses; that yes, it's okay for the government to have greater power, and should people who are not terrorists should accept the fact that their rights & freedoms can be violated. That it's no big deal that a few "innocent" people get caught up in the dragnet. That it's worth it for security sake.

    I mean, if whining about how you took an oath to defend the U.S. nation is all you got...then it prompts me to take violin lessons. This has nothing to do with what I've posted here.

    If all you have to throw at this, is about "Arabs" and "People dying in towers"....then you are having problem with comprehension.

    Now, again, a kick in the ass....

    List the threads in where in I stated that I support Suddam Hussien.

    List the threads in where I stated that any war (including the upcoming conflict) was about oil.

    List the threads in where I stated or presented a Pro or Con about German or France or any other Country.

    This post is about the domestic powers inherited by the authorities of the U.S.A. and how they are being abused. That also, that more abuse will happen.

    Now, I have presented material in which shows that this is happening. Please, if you have any material to disprove that such abuse is happening...please present it. If there is material, to show that this IS NOT happening or that such material presented is false and in error...please present it.

    Because so far, the counter arguments are only proving my words to be correct. That abuse by Federal Authorities and Local Authorities are already happening due to the Patriot Act and Dept. of Homeland Defense.

    The only thing your counter arguments say is, "yes, this should be accepted for the reasons of security". Be it for Saddam, or "Arabs", or Pollyanna's Favorite Shoe Color.

    And the question is; Is it worth it? Is it acceptable that innocent people with no ties to terrorism suffer and be violated by the new enhanced powers the U.S. Government has aquired?

  • Nathan Natas
    Nathan Natas

    [sarcasm]

    The swamp Arabs in soouthern Iraq don't mind that Saddam killed them, and neither do the Kurds who were gassed by their President, Saddam Hussein. I know, because John Edwards "crossed over" and asked them.

    [/sarcasm]

    Yeru, I'll stand with you.

    One of Saddam's more immediate goals is the obliteration of Israel, and he is developing his nuclear, chemical and biological arsenals with that goal in mind.

    I do not subscribe to the "scriptuaral" theory that Israel has a part in the outworking of The Divine Plan.

    My support of Israel is for secular humanitarian, philosphical and political reasons. As has been pointed out an infinite number of times before, Israel is the only democratic nation in the entire Arab region. It seems that democracy is not one of the jewels of Islam - how could it be? Islam is an anachronism, a moment from the stasis-chamber of history.

    Should the US wait until Saddam has his nuclear, chemical and biological stockpiles ready to go? Should the US stand by while Saddam continues development of his super-cannon? We know that if Saddam had the ability to hold the capitol cities of Europe for ransom, he wouldn't do it, don't we? Saddam's simply misunderstood. DOH!!

    No. De-fang the snake now, and cut off his head, re-partition Iraq and give the Kurds a nation unto themselves.

    Edited by - Nathan Natas on 11 February 2003 13:2:26

  • dubla
    dubla

    t h -

    Nobody here has said they trust Saddam anymore, but your so blinded by your love for G Dub, you can't really actually read what anyone has said.

    is this along the same lines as your other comment about how no one on this board supports saddams right to be in power? just wondering.....you called me a "dumbass" when i backed up someone elses statement that many on this board do indeed support saddams right to rule, and when i posted proof of such (on your request), i never heard from you again. of course, shortly after that simon banished you from the board forever, but now that hes apparently granted you clemency, care to comment on that thread? heres the link if you so choose:

    http://www.jehovahs-witness.com/forum/thread.aspx?id=45195&site=3

    thanks, take care,

    aa

  • peacefulpete
    peacefulpete

    Peace is patriotic. The dispute that many Americans have with the present determination of the Bush administration is that it does not adaquately explore other options to war. Over the past months all of the standard buttons of propaganda have been pushed. The facts just keep getting in the way for them to work as effectively this time as last. Hussein is a monster and it would be nie to think that almost any ruler could make life better. This is not in dispute here. Our allies are not blind to this truth, nor are they cowards or dupes or sell outs as you would charactorize anyone with the desire to press for change without killing hundredsof thousands of innocent people. The Powell pitch to the U.N. has been exposed as shallow and deliberately misleading. The "terrorist Alqueda cell run chemical munitions plant" shown in a picture as "proof" of the need for immediate militery strikes was a fraud. The very "camp" pictured was visited by the inspectors and found it to be a long abndoned camp used by Iraqi troop for manuvers. Oh ya there was a primitive bakery operating there in one of the few buildings fit for human use. Think about it. If bthis was the best rguements they could come up with they in fact have nothing that would stand up in court. Tape of voices that has by admission been edited...satellite pictures of trucks by buildings... etc. Many in the world are not convinced. Why are you? Is it not possible that your love for your country has been used against you. The U.N s role is essential to restrain militerists long enough to table other options. The U.S. has been forced to allow this seemingly against the will of those in power. Why shuld this be so? I knowthe obvious oil and esire for greater U.S. precence in the iddle east would benefit those making these decisions. I am not able however to say that this is all a grand ruse. I do feel it was immediately seized upon as a grand opportunity. Rumsfeld passionately and aggressively called for a bombing of Iraq morning Sept 12. He did this before any one knew who was responsible for the attack on the 11th. This readiness to move against Iraq must then be unrelated to what happened. He for one has another agenda.

    Sadam is presently contained and will be more so if the French, German,Russin, Chinese plan to enlarge the number of inspectors and install peacekeepers is implimented. Lets hope that the objectives can be accomplished through this means first. If not then the militery option must be considered. Even then it is deeply disturbing that preemptive strikes will set U.S. precedent that will no doubt change the face of war forever. The Pentagon plan involves 8,000 missles upon Bagdad( official), Will Hussein be there? It seems almost inconsequetial to the militery. But is is not inconsequential to me or the hundreds of thousnads living there. Peace preferring people are patriotic, in fact we want the word back. It has been stolen by the militery.

  • Crazy151drinker
    Crazy151drinker

    I support Saddams rights, especially his right to die.

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