Just read that Carl Olof Jonsson died yesterday

by slimboyfat 362 Replies latest watchtower beliefs

  • Jeffro
    Jeffro

    ‘scholar’:

    dependent on the calendar used by Ezra

    Ezra used Nisan-based accession dating. You claim to understand this subject matter but you need every little thing explained to you. 😂

    Irrespective, Iyyar of 536BCE wasn’t part of Cyrus’ second year regardless of which of the dating systems is chosen, and therefore is not the year the temp foundations were laid. Despite your plaintive claims and desperate need for your religious superstitions, it isn’t a problem at all for a contingency of Jews to have returned to Jerusalem in 538BCE. (Though it is amusing that ‘all things are possible with God’ unless it’s inconvenient for JW dogma. 😂)

    In summary, Babylon’s 70 years began when the last Assyrian king was defeated in 609BCE and ended when Babylon’s king was ‘called to account’ in 539 BCE. The Jewish exile began in early 597BCE, and Jerusalem’s desolation began in 587BCE (Ezekiel 40:1). After Babylon’s 70 years ended in 539BCE, attention was then given to the Jews’ return in 538BCE, after the land had rested 49 years (compare Leviticus 25:8). Temple reconstruction then began in Cyrus’ 2nd regnal year, 537 BCE.

  • Jeffro
    Jeffro

    'scholar' desperately needs it to be 'impossible' for a contingent of Jews to have prepared for a journey from Babylon to Judea in just a couple of months. Of course, it is entirely possible that teams of people could have made the necessary preparations, and many sources agree that 538 BCE is the correct year. But 'scholar' needs it to be impossible even though it is supposedly possible for God to accomplish anything.

    JWs believe the obviously mythological story of Moses and the 'exodus'. In that story, Moses was 80 when he spoke to the conveniently unnamed pharaoh, and after 40 years in the wilderness, he was 120, so he was still 80 when they supposedly left Egypt in Abib (March/April) of, according to JWs, 1513BCE (according to Bible chronology this would actually be 1445BCE, though it doesn't actually depict a historical event).

    Even after Moses had initially lied to the anonymous pharaoh by asking to just go on a three day trip (Exodus 5:3), the Israelites (purportedly millions of them according to Insight, volume 1, page 778) had still not made any travel preparations because they hadn't listened to Moses at all (Exodus 6:9, 12). The series of events in chapters 7 through 11 explicitly cover only a few days, repeatedly referring to "tomorrow", and even part way through the plagues, Moses was still telling the lie that it was just for a 3-day trip (Exodus 8:27). So the Israelites apparently required very little time indeed to prepare for their journey from Egypt to 'the promised land' which was then supposedly interrupted by 40 years in the 'wilderness'.

    So, even though it is actually practically possible for the Jews to have organised a journey from Babylon to Jerusalem in a few months, in view of JW superstitions, it is especially preposterous that 'scholar' believes it is 'impossible'.

  • scholar
    scholar

    Jeffro

    scholar' desperately needs it to be 'impossible' for a contingent of Jews to have prepared for a journey from Babylon to Judea in just a couple of months. Of course, it is entirely possible that teams of people could have made the necessary preparations, and many sources agree that 538 BCE is the correct year. But 'scholar' needs it to be impossible even though it is supposedly possible for God to accomplish anything.

    --

    The said scholar has no need of desperation for the biblical evidence clearly indicates the impossibility for the contingent of Jews to have returned home in 538 BCE. But if Jeffro's imagination stretches that far then that is a matter for him. The historical account not only discusses the journey's preparations but there is also the time of the actual Decree and its proclamation throughout the Empire is an additional factor that disproves 538 BCE as a candidate for the Return.

    --

    • So, even though it is actually practically possible for the Jews to have organised a journey from Babylon to Jerusalem in a few months, in view of JW superstitions, it is especially preposterous that 'scholar' believes it is 'impossible'.

      --

      Such a comment ignores all of the other factors that form part of the history of the Return as described by Ezra and the fact that precise chronological information is lacking, so based on what we do know and what we can know it would be impossible to accomplish such things within 12 months thus reason and the facts should move rather than imagination or some wild theory.

      scholar JW

  • scholar
    scholar

    Jeffro

    Ezra used Nisan-based accession dating. You claim to understand this subject matter but you need every little thing explained to you.

    --

    Prove it. We cannot be dogmatic about whether Ezra used the Nisan or Tishri accession based calendar as this is a matter of controversy within scholarship.

    --

    Irrespective, Iyyar of 536BCE wasn’t part of Cyrus’ second year regardless of which of the dating systems is chosen, and therefore is not the year the temp foundations were laid. Despite your plaintive claims and desperate need for your religious superstitions, it isn’t a problem at all for a contingency of Jews to have returned to Jerusalem in 538BCE. (Though it is amusing that ‘all things are possible with God’ unless it’s inconvenient for JW dogma.

    --

    WT scholars in harmony with Ezra 3:8 have thoughtfully determined that the temple foundation was laid in the second month 536 BCE.

    --

    In summary, Babylon’s 70 years began when the last Assyrian king was defeated in 609BCE and ended when Babylon’s king was ‘called to account’ in 539 BCE. The Jewish exile began in early 597BCE, and Jerusalem’s desolation began in 587BCE (Ezekiel 40:1). After Babylon’s 70 years ended in 539BCE, attention was then given to the Jews’ return in 538BCE, after the land had rested 49 years (compare Leviticus 25:8). Temple reconstruction then began in Cyrus’ 2nd regnal year, 537 BCE

    --

    Jeffro will not be happy!!

    scholar JW

  • Jeffro
    Jeffro

    The usual drivel devoid of reality. Just go away. You’ve been trounced enough for now.

  • Pierre1977
    Pierre1977
    Gotta love the irrelevant ad hominem.

    An argumentum ad hominem is an attack against the person. My intention was not to attack you. If you were a Hindu, I would have written "The Hindu Jeffro wrote:", and if you were a Muslim, I would have written "The Muslim Jeffro wrote:". I just named your affiliation to your world view, to get the people to understand who we are talking about. That's also why I introduced myself as Bible believing Christian at the beginning. I don't want readers to be left in the dark and guess my ideological beliefs as they read along. And I would not have criticized you if you wrote "The Christian Pierre1977 wrote:". If you already consider naming your position an attack upon your person, that tells a lot about the position you are advocating.

    Anyway, I think Jonsson would be glad that others are continuing to point out JW lies.

    Didn't I tell you that I don't care about the Jehovah's Witness' fixation on 538 vs. 537 B. C. E.? If you want to argue with Jehovah's Witnesses, go to scholar JW. I discussed other topics having to do with the reliability of the Bible. And here Jonsson would support me because he was also a Christian. Not that that necessarily matters, I don't use this argumentum ad verecundiam, but you mentioned him first as supporting you, although this is obviously not the case here.

    There is no evidence Ezra had even been born yet in 538BCE let alone officiating as a priest, particularly since he was still alive in 457BCE when he went from Babylon to Jerusalem (and continued living for some time after that). A Jewish priest had to be at least 30, so unless you think Ezra was 111 when he traveled to Jerusalem in 457 BCE, then you’re obviously wrong. Hence the details of the stories are obviously conflated with Ezra’s much later journey to Jerusalem.

    I don't see anything wrong with someone being over 110 years old. Ezra was blessed my God. Moses was even 120 at the end of his journey. You may say: “That's unlikely!” But isn't that the same logic as the Jehovah's Witnesses and scholar JW with his “It's unlikely that they were so fast to still make it in 538 B.C.E.”? Well, guess what, unlikely things do happen. But it's not impossible for humans to be that old.

    If you want to hear the Witness' excuse of this "Biblical error", you'd have to ask scholar JW. But I know that many Jews and other Christians have good other explanations, suggesting that this priest Ezra during Zerubbabel's travel was a different priest than the later one who also wrote the book. The idea is based on some priest listing of this supposed first Ezra somewhere in Nehemiah, though I would have to look this up.

    But I believe in a 111 year old man being blessed by God!

    Which means Tyre is still a definite failure. And so is Babylon since Hillah occupies the same land with only a small heritage protected area of ruins a few hundred meters across.

    Actually, Hillah is adjacent to Ancient Babylon, but not on it. The ruins of Ancient Babylon are still there. Concerning Tyre: Although the prophecy says in Ezekiel 26:14 says that Tyre won't be rebuild, it also says that it “shall be a place for the spreading of nets”, showing that “not rebuild” doesn't mean “uninhabited“ with not anything build. Don't take everything literally like fundamentalists, examine the context. And from that, it becomes clear that “not rebuild” means that national prominence (Ezekiel 27:3), wealth, riches (Ezekiel 27:3, 4, 33), strength and security (Ezekiel 27:10, 11) would not be rebuild, hence the picture of simple fishermen living there and spreading their nets.

  • Fisherman
    Fisherman

    Jews believe in a 70 year exile and a complete desolation of the land after Gedaliah but Jewish definition of exile doesn’t begin after Gedaliah but still 70 and complete desolation like JW and the destruction of Jerusalem at -423. Obviously Jerusalem was destroyed much later but that’s how Jews see it inspite of historical and astronomical evidence of much later on. Bible interpretation is subjective. I’m convinced in a 70 year desolation as scholar has explained. Jeffro uses too much fallacy in his debate with scholar. Aside from fallacy Scholar has won the debate here. Bases on Bible interpretation I see it circa 607 other non JW too. I think if you want to prove 586 you would need to show astronomical and historical evidence. I’ve seen interpretations of evidence suggesting 586 which have convinced a lot of people but nothing solid like 539. I would like to hear SBF and TD views and Ernest’s.

  • scholar
    scholar

    Jeffro

    he usual drivel devoid of reality. Just go away. You’ve been trounced enough for now.

    --

    Ditto!

    scholar JW

  • Jeffro
    Jeffro

    Pierre1977:

    My intention was not to attack you.

    Yeah, sure, totally not trying to ‘poison the well’. Just your totally normal way of consistently referring to people. 🤦‍♂️

    Didn't I tell you that I don't care about the Jehovah's Witness' fixation on 538 vs. 537 B. C. E.?

    So? That comment you responded to was about the broader context of the whole thread. You’re not the centre of the universe.

    I don't see anything wrong with someone being over 110 years old.

    Well, yeah, you can take that view (the ‘God is magic’ card,, but by that token, ‘scholar’ can’t claim 538 BCE is impossible either). But that isn’ even a mainstream Christian view let alone historical. Ezra isn’t generally regarded as being born until after 500BCE.

    Actually, Hillah is adjacent to Ancient Babylon, but not on it.

    You really imagine everyone in Babylon lived in that little patch of ruins a few hundred metres across? 😂

    Although the prophecy says in Ezekiel 26:14 says that Tyre won't be rebuild, it also says that it “shall be a place for the spreading of nets”, showing that “not rebuild” doesn't mean “uninhabited“ with not anything build.

    There’s a whole city there. And we’ll just ignore the verse about Tyre not even being found. 😂

  • Jeffro
    Jeffro

    Fisherman:

    Jeffro uses too much fallacy in his debate with scholar.

    🤣 demonstrate one fallacy I used

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