Just read that Carl Olof Jonsson died yesterday

by slimboyfat 362 Replies latest watchtower beliefs

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  Jeffro

  ‘scholar’:

  two deportations are subsumed as one Jewish or Babylonian Exile as treated by most historians.

  Indeed. 😂 The Jewish exile is broadly recognised as beginning in early 597BCE when most of Jerusalem’s population were deported to Babylon, though there were other deportation in 587BCE (when the city was also destroyed) and in 582BCE. See also Ezekiel 40:1.

  Jer. 29:10 simply addresses the fact of their imminent release from Babylon having been exiled for 70 years thus in anticipation of their Return- release from Exile.

  I understand that you need to cling to this dogma despite the fact that it would be plainly stupid to turn attention to their return if they had by then already returned. Sad really.

  and with the Return from Exile of the Jews in 537 BCE.

  538BCE. Though many Jews remained in Babylon.

  Jeremiah described the 'judgement' in terms of the king, city and land of Chaldea and this did not happen synchronistically in 539BCE

  The ‘judgement’ (a superstitious interpretation of Persia’s conquest of Babylon) of the king and city was very definitely in 539BCE. The hyperbole about the whole land of Chaldea was never fulfilled of course, and the region is still quite inhabited.

  Further, if it argued that the 70 years ended in 539 BCE with the Fall of Babylon then that would mean that the beginning was in 609 BCE wherein nothing of consequence marked that year

  609BCE is the year in which Babylon conquered the last vestige of the Assyrian empire at Harran, definitively marking Babylon as the new world power. But JWs conveniently forget about the ‘march of the world powers’ at this juncture. 🤣 Your fallacious argument from authority and ad hominem about Jonsson is entirely irrelevant.

  Stern's description of the state of the cities in unoccupied Judah matches perfectly Jeremeiah's prophecy. and agrees perfectly with our interpretation of the 70 years of desolation.

  So ‘scholar’ chooses to continue to lie. Stern doesn’t say Judah was unoccupied at all, he said that the towns that were destroyed weren’t resettled until the Persian period. Stern adds that small settlements remained throughout Judea during the neo-Babylonian period, and he further adds that the area of Benjamin wasn’t destroyed.
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  scholar

  Jeffro

  Indeed. 😂 The Jewish exile is broadly recognised as beginning in early 597BCE when most of Jerusalem’s population were deported to Babylon, though there were other deportation in 587BCE (when the city was also destroyed) and in 582BCE. See also Ezekiel 40:1.

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  At last, the scholar has achieved a breakthrough- a recognition of the fact of the Jewish Exile. which of course had its beginning with two separate deportations culminating as the Jewish/Babylonian Exile commensurate with the Fall of Jerusalem in 607 BCE beginning the 70 years.

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  I understand that you need to cling to this dogma despite the fact that it would be plainly stupid to turn attention to their return if they had by then already returned. Sad really.

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  No need for dogma but a simple recognition of a historical reality as Jer. 29:10 clearly points to their future release from captivity at the official end of the 70 years marked by their reoccupation of the Land right down to the very month.

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  538BCE. Though many Jews remained in Babylon.

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  Nope for 538 BCE was physically impossible unless they took flight by QANTAS or Rail.

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  he ‘judgement’ (a superstitious interpretation of Persia’s conquest of Babylon) of the king and city was very definitely in 539BCE. The hyperbole about the whole land of Chaldea was never fulfilled of course, and the region is still quite inhabited.

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  You seem to be plagued by superstition!! How can one part of the prophecy be interpreted literally and the remainder be viewed as hyperbole? The simple fact is that the land of Chaldea or Shinar remains uninhabited even today fulfilling Bible prophecy.

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  609BCE is the year in which Babylon conquered the last vestige of the Assyrian empire at Harran, definitively marking Babylon as the new world power. But JWs conveniently forget about the ‘march of the world powers’ at this juncture. 🤣 Your fallacious argument from authority and ad hominem about Jonsson is entirely irrelevant.

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  That is simply opinion. If the 70 years were marked by a distinct event that can be dated such as the Fall of Babylon in 539 BCE then common sense would dictate that the 70 years would have not some 'fuzzy' beginning but a distinct event in terms of history and chronology and that is why COJ struggled with this dilemma having to consider the efficacy of 605 BCE

  JW's are very familiar with the march and chronology of the World Powers and more particularly the presence of the Assyrian and Egyptian presence at the ascendancy of the NB Period in respect to the Land of Judah in the 6th century. My comment of COJ is relevant because he has dealt with is subject and was your mentor or influencer.

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  So ‘scholar’ chooses to continue to lie. Stern doesn’t say Judah was unoccupied at all, he said that the towns that were destroyed weren’t resettled until the Persian period. Stern adds that small settlements remained throughout Judea during the neo-Babylonian period, and he further adds that the area of Benjamin wasn’t destroyed.

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  Well if the towns were not resettled then that could well mean that the cities or towns were unoccupied for one would not expect an outsider such as a modern-day archaeologist to use the same language or terms as the prophet Jeremiah. Thus his description matches or nearly approximates the words of Jeremiah much to the chagrin of Jeffro.Thus, Stern's description of Judah approximates Jeremiah's description of the desolation of the Land of Judah.

  scholar JW
  
  
  

  
  
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  Jeffro

  ‘scholar’:

  At last, the scholar has achieved a breakthrough- a recognition of the fact of the Jewish Exile.

  Truly delusional (well, either that or blatantly dishonest). No one ever said there ‘was no exile’. You really should stop trotting out that tired misrepresentation all the time. There was no ‘70-year exile’.

  No need for dogma but a simple recognition of a historical reality as Jer. 29:10 clearly points to their future release from captivity at the official end of the 70 years marked by their reoccupation of the Land right down to the very month.

  Entirely wrong of course. Jeremiah’s definition of Babylon’s 70 years explicitly ends with the conquest of Babylon, not an end of exile, and Jeremiah also directly states that exile was a punishment for refusing to serve Babylon during Babylon’s 70 years. But you can keep lying to yourself. See also ‘sunk cost fallacy’.

  Nope for 538 BCE was physically impossible unless they took flight by QANTAS or Rail.

  If you think a period of 6 months for a 4-month journey is fast, it does explain a lot about your gullibility.

  You seem to be plagued by superstition!! How can one part of the prophecy be interpreted literally and the remainder be viewed as hyperbole?

  Hyperbole is a frequent element of the genre. Also, the texts were edited after their initial writing, well into the Persian period. No superstition required. But even taken at face value, the context of Jeremiah 29 is several years before Jerusalem’s destruction but after the exile had begun, so it obviously didn’t refer to 70 years starting from an unspecified future event.

  The simple fact is that the land of Chaldea or Shinar remains uninhabited even today fulfilling Bible prophecy.

  😂🤦‍♂️ https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Hillah. But that’s by no means the only part that’s still inhabited of course.

  That is simply opinion. If the 70 years were marked by a distinct event that can be dated such as the Fall of Babylon in 539 BCE then common sense would dictate that the 70 years would have not some 'fuzzy' beginning but a distinct event in terms of history and chronology

  Actually it’s basic arithmetic. 🤦‍♂️ History finds a specific significant event in 609BCE right where it’s expected.

  My comment of COJ is relevant because he has dealt with is subject and was your mentor or influencer.

  Notice how the apologist contradicts himself by first fallaciously claiming I said something not supported by Jonsson (as if that would matter), and then asserting that Jonsson is my mentor. 🤦‍♂️

  Well if the towns were not resettled then that could well mean that the cities or towns were unoccupied for one would not expect an outsider such as a modern-day archaeologist to use the same language or terms as the prophet Jeremiah.

  Wow. 🤦‍♂️ Maybe he needs a venn diagram. The towns that were destroyed remained unsettled until the Persian period. Other settlements were not destroyed and remained inhabited.
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  Jeffro

  ‘scholar’:

  The simple fact is that the land of Chaldea or Shinar remains uninhabited even today fulfilling Bible prophecy.

  It really can’t be stressed enough how outlandishly wrong that statement is. Literally millions of people live in the area that was known as Chaldea.

  See also Tyre. 😂
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  scholar

  Jeffro

  Truly delusional (well, either that or blatantly dishonest). No one ever said there ‘was no exile’. You really should stop trotting out that tired misrepresentation all the time. There was no ‘70-year exile’

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  Well if there was no 70 year exile then how long was your Exile?

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  Entirely wrong of course. Jeremiah’s definition of Babylon’s 70 years explicitly ends with the conquest of Babylon, not an end of exile, and Jeremiah also directly states that exile was a punishment for refusing to serve Babylon during Babylon’s 70 years. But you can keep lying to yourself. See also ‘sunk cost fallacy’.

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  False. Jeremiah's 70 years explicitly end with the Return of the Jews and not with the Fall of Babylon as proved by Ezra the historian in his closing words of 2 Chronicles and opening words of Ezra. The 70-year period was one of an Exile for it is during that period met all of the requirements of an Exile period namely an invasion by a foreign power-subjugation of land and populace and deportation for starters. The Exile thus served as punishment or an expression of judgment upon Judah.

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  If you think a period of 6 months for a 4-month journey is fast, it does explain a lot about your gullibility.

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  Gullibility is on your shoulders if you think that only a four-month journey was the only part of their Return.

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  Hyperbole is a frequent element of the genre. Also, the texts were edited after their initial writing, well into the Persian period. No superstition required. But even taken at face value, the context of Jeremiah 29 is several years before Jerusalem’s destruction but after the exile had begun, so it obviously didn’t refer to 70 years starting from an unspecified future event.

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  Hyperbole or figurative language is part of prophetic genre but its presence does not negate history which nicely coexists with prophecy. Jer. 29 was addressed to the Exiles in Babylon with words of comfort concerning their future release from Exile but the time of its writing is unknown but was written during the time of Zedekiah's reign.

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  But that’s by no means the only part that’s still inhabited of course.

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  Not so for the exact land of Chaldea or Shinar no longer exists as a territory along with its cities at that time.

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  Actually it’s basic arithmetic. 🤦‍♂️ History finds a specific significant event in 609BCE right where it’s expected.

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  You need more than arithmetic but a precise historical event which you cannot nominate but simply a fuzzy assertion about the end of the Assyrian World Power which cannoty be precisely determined.

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  Notice how the apologist contradicts himself by first fallaciously claiming I said something not supported by Jonsson (as if that would matter), and then asserting that Jonsson is my mentor. 🤦‍♂️

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  You do not have to agree with COJ on every point to have been influenced by his thesis.

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  Stern's description of Judah as being unsettled is consistent with a description of the land as desolation even to the smallest degree even without an inhabitant.

  scholar JW
  
  
  
  
  
  
  
  
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  Jeffro

  ‘scholar’:

  Stern's description of Judah as being unsettled is consistent with a description of the land as desolation even to the smallest degree even without an inhabitant.

  What an absolute liar! 🤦‍♂️ Stern directly states that parts of Judea remained inhabited.

  I’ve embarrassed you enough for now. You can go away.
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  Jeffro

  It really must sting apologists when they have to water down Jeremiah 51:62 to ‘really’ mean, ‘it’s still uninhabited because the millions of people who live there call it a different name’ (though Babylon province still has the same name). 😂
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  scholar

  Jeffro

  It really must sting apologists when they have to water down Jeremiah 51:62 to ‘really’ mean, ‘it’s still uninhabited because the millions of people who live there call it a different name’ (though Babylon province still has the same name.

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  You miss the point. We are not talking about modern geography but ancient geography of an ancient world of ancient peoples, cities and territorial borders which was the context for Jeremiah's prophecy which in broad terms remains fulfilled to this day ad the ancient cities of Babylon and Ur no longer exist today.

  scholar JW

  
  
  
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  scholar

  Jeffro

  • What an absolute liar! 🤦‍♂️ Stern directly states that parts of Judea remained inhabited.

    I’ve embarrassed you enough for now. You can go away.

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    Yes Stern confirms the fact that at the very least parts of Judah remained uninhabited. which nicely fits in well with Jeremiah's description of the desolate Land of Judah.

    scholar JW

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  riblah

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