The State of the Union

by Marvin Shilmer 142 Replies latest jw friends

  • Valis
    Valis

    I don't care for George Bush or his sorely lacking economic and ecological policies. Someone tell that boy how to say the word nuclear please! *LOL* Really...I think all politicians are about the same...some more honest about things than others...that's really the only difference. One thing that should be noted is that regardless of who the president is, the chairman of the Federal Reserve is far more important that the Pres...IMO. He controls the money and all about the money you know...anyway I wanted to add that it would be a good thing if instead of making the top 5%, or whatever number you want to use, pay big taxes, why not allow them to take a good portion of their yearly tax debt and invest it in a small business that needed a boost of capital or was just starting. IMO that's a real way of stimulating the economy instead of cutting taxes and you give the money back to the economy and not the government.

    Sincerely,

    District Overbeer

  • Sara Annie
    Sara Annie
    If the tax code were as simple as your little story of ten men eating a meal, then you'd have a good point. The problem is is that the way taxes are levied isn't quite that simple. If taxes were figured as a percentage of one's gross earnings your analogy might fit a little better. As you know, that isn't how taxes are figured.

    As stated, the above illustration is a simplified one. That does not, however, mean that it is invalid. It presents an understandable (and, again, simplified) explanation of how tax cuts work. The analogy stands up to scrutiny, and it's intentions cannot be dismissed on the grounds that it's too simple. It is not a story about the intricacies of the tax code, the theory behind adjusted gross income, or the conspiracy against the poor that is being waged by the big bad IRS and our legal system. It's a logical, straightforward presentation of who benefits from tax cuts, and how clouded the issue can become by those who cry out for equality without weighting the benefit gained against the original contribution made.

    Of course taxes are not based on a flat percentage against gross income. That's just silly. If that were the case, the poorest among us would not be excluded from payment of federal taxes, and none of us would not have the benefit of pre-tax expense and interest deductions and GI reduction allowances for a large variety of expenses. Yes, the tax code is complicated. Taxation is a complicated business. Do some of the policies and practices benefit the wealthy? You bet. But the tax code certainly does NOT benefit only the rich. If you want to add a dimension to the dinner-bill story, you might want to consider that the few of the four poorest diners are actually being PAID to eat by virtue of the tax code (i.e. the Earned Income Credit).

    There's a lot about the tax system that I don't know, but one thing I know very well is that the rich are able to hide much of the wealth on which their fair share of taxes should be based but isn't. Since it's (educated and wealthy) lawyers who write the tax code to begin with, it should come as no surprise that they would be interested in helping their own. And they do.

    If someone takes the stance that the tax code only benefits the rich and that the little guy is getting constantly and repeatedly screwed, but in the same breath admits they don't know much about the system they are railing against, they have little hope of having credibility assigned to their assertions.

    Funny, thing when I was your age I was a liberal and anti-business. That changed over the years when I came to work in a management position and got to understand how business works. On the issue of your envy of the rich, I say, get over it.
    Larc-it's funny how that works, isn't it? I think sometimes we get attached to the way we view ourselves, and it's difficult to recognize we've changed. I was a dyed in the wool liberal in college. As my views began to shift after I moved into my career, started a family, and grew older, it was almost painful to admit how much different the kid I used to be was from the woman I've become. I remember my husband grinning a few years ago after one of our discussions about various socio-economic/political issues and saying "You know what this means, honey? You're a republican!"
  • teejay
    teejay
    ... if you own a home do you take your mortgage interest deduction? Do you take your education credit if in school? Is that hiding how much you make? The system is set up to pay a percentage of your income and there is no hiding what you make there are laws that give you the ability to take a credit or deduction but that is availiable to all not only the rich.

    IMHO the more tax breaks you give to corporations the more money they have for their employees.

    Scarlet,

    Don't get me wrong. You'll never be able to label me as either liberal or conservative because I flip back and forth between different perspectives depending on the issue.

    "Hiding" was probably a bad way to put it. No, the rich don't hide earnings but they are allowed scads of deductions that are unavailable to those that are less wealthy, dropping the percentage of the amount of taxes they pay. I personally know a millionaire who -- he says, and I believe him -- hasn't paid a dime's worth of income tax in twenty years. One of the strategies that he uses to do this is one you mentioned: writing off the interest on his $325,000, 6,000 sq. foot mansion. He also claims his $54,000 Lincoln as a total business write-off.

    Someone owning a $1 million house has a huge advantage over a family earning $40- or 50 thousand (even if they own their home) and an even greater advantage over a couple who don't own their home at all. While being allowed to write off a larger chunk of their income (dropping the percentage of taxes assessed), the wealthy have the added advantage(s) of living better, having better police and fire protection and other advantages that are paid for by the entire community.

    I understand the theory behind trickle-down economics but I'm not all that confident that it actually works in practice. As I said, there's a lot about the tax system that I don't know. I do think a flat tax would be a step in the right direction, though.

  • teejay
    teejay
    There's a lot about the tax system that I don't know, but one thing I know very well is that the rich are able to hide much of the wealth on which their fair share of taxes should be based but isn't. Since it's (educated and wealthy) lawyers who write the tax code to begin with, it should come as no surprise that they would be interested in helping their own. And they do.

    If someone takes the stance that the tax code only benefits the rich and that the little guy is getting constantly and repeatedly screwed, but in the same breath admits they don't know much about the system they are railing against, they have little hope of having credibility assigned to their assertions.


    Sara,

    If you would, please show me where I EVER said (in this thread or any other here on JW.com) that the "the tax code only benefits the rich and that the little guy is getting constantly and repeatedly screwed." Would you do that for me, please?

    'Til then, would you please pay more attention to and address what I actually say?

    Thank you.

  • Sara Annie
    Sara Annie

    Teejay,

    Please accept my apology for pointing that comment at you. While I used your quotation, I intended my comments to be directed more broadly at those who make rash assumptions without any suppporting information. It was unfair of me to cite your post and then comment as I did without a disclaimer. In reading your response to Scarlet's post, I can see more clearly how your specific comments were intended.

    The point I was trying to make (albeit not very effectively) was that people tend to make ridiculously broad assumptions based on very little information, and then state them with alarming conviction. As someone who appreciates irony it all it's various forms, I can say that it looks like I was guilty of just that phenomenon. I'm sorry, please forgive.

    Thanks,

    Sara

  • SixofNine
    SixofNine

    So Sara, is this tax cut by Bush a good thing? Does it go far enough? Are more tax cuts needed? I mean for the ideal; is the current tax load wrong, with this change making it better?

  • rolling rock
    rolling rock
    Teejay Don't get me wrong. You'll never be able to label me as either liberal or conservative because I flip back and forth between different perspectives depending on the issue

    That would make you nothing... You said it, not me...

  • Sentinel
    Sentinel

    Both my husband and I listened intently to President Bush's speech. We had heard that he probably wouldn't speak about Iraq--but he did. Personally, I had my reservations, but felt it was an excellent outline of status and plan regarding internal affairs of our nation.

    We have some excellent posters here with some really great thoughts....Kelsey, Prisca, Yerusalyium, Sara. I quote Kelsey007, who said: " Would not those that live closest to his nation (Iraq), be begging our action instead of shying away from the war? This is the part that I find most bewildering."

    I have to wonder the same. Perhaps they are just too frightened to speak up. Bush really seems to be "preparing us for strong action. Yet, he also speaks of war being "forced upon us". (Well, who is doing the forcing here?) The members of the UN need to be strong in this matter, and not let ONE nation (under one man, Bush) make a radical decision.

    ....and in my opinion, terrorism is not something that is simply wiped out with a war.

    Edited because my original text got messed up, and looked to me like it "didn't take", so I went back and shortened it. Now I notice that someone has "quoted something of what I posted" So, did it take or what

    Edited by - Sentinel on 29 January 2003 13:51:7

    Edited by - Sentinel on 29 January 2003 13:54:39

  • email
    email

    " Would not those that live closest to his nation (Iraq), be begging our action instead of shying away from the war? This is the part that I find most bewildering." Me too

    The answer is OF COURSE NOT... isn't that OBVIOUS you people?... we're "infidels"!!

    If they're AGAINST us (like IRAQ is) they are WITH THEM... even if they don't like each other... they dislike us TOO MUCH...

  • email
    email

    By the way... no one here has talked about Bush's incentive to further develop hydrogen powered vehicles... or can I assume that... no one is saying anything because it'll throw off the old "Bush is only interested in OIL and that's why we're going there"...

    Just a thought.

    Edited by - email on 29 January 2003 14:2:48

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