Ray Franz was an Idiot

by vinman 96 Replies latest watchtower scandals

  • steve2

    I would describe myself as a JW as having been deluded. I view that description as accurate and not a personal putdown.

    By contrast, I would not describe myself as having therefore been "an idiot" or "a moron" because those words are not only pejorative but inaccurate, being labels for deficient intellectual abilities.

    To equate the nouns "idiot" and "moron" with the adjective "deluded" does not make sense. You can be deluded without necessarily being an idiot or moron.

  • Vidiot

    @ steve2...

    You're right; you don't have to be and idiot or a moron to be deluded...


    ...but it doesn't hurt.

  • zimunzucz

    I remember the exact moment I walked into a Christian bookstore in the winter of 1996 and asked the clerk, "Do you have the book, The Five Gospels, what did Jesus say"?

    She jokingly replied, Oh we don't carry that book- we don't want to stampede the horses.

    Sensing it was just what I was looking for, I immediately headed over to the secular bookstore to order it.

  • Viviane
    Don't take the advice from Viviane too seriously. She loves to tear people down. It's just her thing. She is kinda the Joan Rivers of ex-JW's. Some people have a difficult time distancing themselves from the JW mindset.

    I don't tear people down at all. You're speaking from an extreme and severe lack of information and thought.

  • apostrate

    No I'm not. And you are not reading my post in the spirit in which it was intended.

    In my mind, comparing you to Joan Rivers is an extreme compliment. And I am ecstatic that you have responded to my post regardless of what you say to me!

    You have made my day!!

  • SimonSays

    It astonishes me when people start to promote hypothetical books such as the 5 gospels. People should be honest enough to suggest the writings of Robert Funk is nothing more than an elaborate means to redefine orthodox Christianity. Another Judeo-Christian way to look at Christ as a prophet not the Messiah. While I won’t speak ill of the dead, attempting to add a new Gospel through deception is a common factor nowadays. Classic Jesus Seminar rhetoric.

    Robert Funk:

    “Those of us who work with that hypothetical middle [between creation and the end of all things] —Jesus of Nazareth—are hard pressed to concoct any form of coherence that will unite beginning, middle, and end in some grand new fiction that will meet all the requirements of narrative. To put the matter bluntly, we are having as much trouble with the middle—the messiah—as we are with the terminal points. What we need is a new fiction that takes as its starting point the central event in the Judeo-Christian drama and reconciles that middle with a new story that reaches beyond old beginnings and endings. In sum, we need a new narrative of Jesus, a new gospel, if you will, that places Jesus differently in the grand scheme, the epic story. (Italics mine)” Robert Funk

    How different was Ray's commitment not turning atheist for the sake of his book sales.

  • vinman
    I looked up this book. I read many reviews and studies on it today. I wholeheartedly agree with SimonSays. Amen
  • never a jw
    never a jw

    Vinman wrote:

    "Personally, I would never express or imply to an atheist or any non-Christian religious person, that they are delusional, lack critical thinking skills, etc."

    You seem to imply that being delusional can apply either way, atheist or theist. Non sense. The more educated you are, the greater your critical thinking skills and the better the chance of your being non religious. The opposite is for the less educated. Religiosity and education run in opposite directions. Atheists quite frequently hold their position because they refuse to believe in things that can't be proven, therefore the term delusional is inappropriate. On the other hand, religious people, by definition, believe or have faith in the invisible, therefore they run a greater risk of being delusional.

    Yes, Ray Franz was closer to being delusional than Bertrand Russell, but he was far from being an idiot. In the end, who gives a rip about being an atheist or theist. What matters is your humanity, of which Ray Franz had much more than most atheist and theists in the world.

  • azor

    Vinman there is a great difference as mentioned here between ridiculing a person and ridiculing their beliefs.

    Dawkins put it well when he stated that I respect you to much as another human being to respect your delusional beliefs. The problem is that for many religious people their identity is tied up with what they believe.

    Belief in made up things whatever they may be does not merit respect.

  • ReligionOfHatred
    Who was Ray Franz? Was he a bad man or did he get slandered like my mom and dad, grandma and grandpa are now? Grandma love's Jehovah so much, so does Grandpa, superfine apostles are attacking my spiritual grandparents and doing wicked things to them, why? My parents love Jehovah God too, the effects from my Aunt and Uncle, they don't care if they stumble entire congregations, I fear Satan is winning the battle against all the good members in the Kingdom Hall, why?

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