Ray Franz was an Idiot

by vinman 96 Replies latest watchtower scandals

  • Viviane

    Vinman was trying to take a jab at me (the critical thinking and education comment makes that clear) and utterly kissed his target and goal, thereby demonstrating a need for the very critical thinking skills he derides.

    As velociraptor Jesus said, "Go easy on him, he knows not what he lacks. Or don't, I don't really care because I'm a velociraptor."

  • Wasanelder Once
    Wasanelder Once
    I said "I like turtles" because this whole subject is a waste of time. Fighting on the net is like a slap fight between two blind people. So, again I say.... I like Turtles. nuff said.
  • Heaven

    vinman, just as a suggestion for next time... if you are going to post something sarcastic you may want to identify that up front, maybe use html-like tags such as the follow:

    <sarcasm> whatever text you wish to state sarcastically </sarcasm>

    Ray confirmed for me a lot of my suspicions about the JW religion with his book "Crisis of Conscience" and he taught me some new stuff I did not know (since I've never been to Bethel or on the GB).

    Some people who leave one cult tend to sign up for a different one. My grandfather did this. Believers don't always develop critical thinking skills. There is a certain amount of wishing something to be true without looking further that happens.

  • vinman


    I'm sorry. But I don't even know who you are. My point was simply do unto others as you want them to do unto you. Personally, I would never express or imply to an atheist or any non-Christian religious person, that they are delusional, lack critical thinking skills, etc. I simply feel sorry for some new comers here. Some express perhaps that Christ set them free. We give them a warm welcome and say we are their friends and then as time passes, we bash them directly and indirectly. I know. I experienced it. Not saying everyone does it. But we do see it. Many may agree with me, but don't say anything. We come here to heal, not to preach. When I see a post about pro Bible or pro Christianity, I don't feel that is always preaching. I think those individuals are just wanting like minded people to respond. If the post opens up condemning atheists, I don't agree with that either.

  • Viviane

    You lack critical thinking skills. I don't feel sorry for you. It's entirely within your ability to fix it not, depending upon how comfortable you are being lacking.

    Choose your targets more wisely, next time.

  • zimunzucz

    I visited Ray a couple times at this home about 25 years ago and I was the beneficiary of one of Cynthia's wonderful meals. Yes, They were very nice to me, ie, a JW who had quit a few years before that and was disfellowshipped quickly afterwards by my KH. However, it was the book, The Five Gospels, that truly set me free. I no longer needed Ray who still stuck in the same mindset.

    One thing I noticed about them, is to my knowledge they never joined a church, no they just did their thing and met with other like minded ex-JWs. I think Ray liked the attention he got from the Ex-JW community and many looked up to him as their anti-typical Moses who led the JWs out of WT bondage. It was up to them to find their own Mt Sinai- Ray was a Theist of sorts, but I never did pin him down to any concrete set of dogmas. . I think one reason he may have stayed away from churches was he didn't want to hurt the sales of his books, which was an income source for them. Obviously Social security must have been very meager. I do know their house was pretty much paid for by donations from the brethren of ex-JW land.

    I may have been an idiot, because I wasn't smart enough to figure out the WT con game before I was sucked into it. My average neighbors and friends did figure it out though and refused the constant JW offers of a Bible study. Those of us who were just regular JWs were duped by a corporation using sophisticated mind control techniques. Who did that to us- why it was the governing body,( since 1971) WT corporate board members and the president. The GB was apparently lazy and delegated writing and operational authority to 6 committees in 1975 ( the year the Sh*t hit the fan)

    By 1970, Ray was in on the center of action and worked on the aid to Bible understanding, which was instrumental in opening his eyes to the WT doctrinal frauds. He could have walked out right then and there. Cynthia was born in 1935 and would have been 40 in 1975--she may still have been able to have children had they left immediately, when they had accurate knowledge about the WT religion. They stayed put until after 1980, until the option of having children was gone.

    Was Ray an idiot? No he was not, he was pretty smart, but he may have been a high functioning moron for not leaving, just as soon as he knew the WT was not Jehoovers sole true religion on earth.

    The biblical adage, you reap what you sow, is hard to overcome for those JWs who delay exiting the KH. That is a good lesson for fence sitters who are waiting to leave the KH, in the hopes they can get away without any negative consequences for their life.=== wait, wait, delay, dither, it's never the right time for some people.

  • apostrate


    Don't take the advice from Viviane too seriously. She loves to tear people down. It's just her thing. She is kinda the Joan Rivers of ex-JW's. Some people have a difficult time distancing themselves from the JW mindset.

    But, we all love her here. Her posts are highly entertaining!

  • Vidiot

    @ vinman...

    Dude, are you high or something?

  • westiebilly11
    ..sometimes it's best to remain silent and avoid being thought a fool...alas....you did not.!
  • vinman


    Those are really good thoughts. I will definately check out the book you mentioned. The Five Gospels.

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