Ray Franz was an Idiot

by vinman 96 Replies latest watchtower scandals

  • fukitol

    Wtf, an apostate labelleling Ray Franz an absolute idiot and moron just because he never became an atheist?

    What an insolent little upstart moron you are Vinman.

  • The Rebel
    The Rebel

    I just started a thread on the damage W.T material did to me. From what I understand Ray wrote two books helping me understand this?

    Personally I hadnt heard of these books, but calling someone an idiot, for exposing the truth, and helpng people out of a cult is too stupid to comment on.

    But that is not what you are saying is it vinman?

    What you are saying is this man is an idiot for believing in a higher authority. Well were we idiots when we believed in the higher authority of the Watchtower? Or were we simply not informed?

    The Rebel.

  • Wasanelder Once
    Wasanelder Once
    I like turtles.
  • Amelia Ashton
    Amelia Ashton

    Without Ray Franz book Crisis Of Conscience how many of us would be out the JW programme but still living with the guilt and fear?

    I had so many doubts and had stopped going to meetings but was still researching and still believing a lot of it.

    Then I read Crisis Of Conscience. That was when I became fully able to let go the words of those men in America who had controlled my thoughts, my emotions, my behaviour and the information I badly needed to be truly free of their control I was now no longer too afraid to read.

    He did the best thing he could at that time to make amends. He wrote a book exposing the practices behind the curtain so the rest of us could make an informed choice and that book has helped me and many many more escape that insidious and sly and devious paedophile protecting organisation.

  • never a jw
    never a jw

    I'd take Ray Franz as a friend for his integrity and compassion, even as a mentor in many issues, a lot faster than vinman.

    Vinman, being an atheist doesn't make you wise, or good, or educated. Ray Franz was far better human than you are. And his beliefs in Israelite/Jewish/Christian myths has no relevance in assessing his humanity, which was far greater than most people's.

  • vinman

    If you read some of my replies, you will see that the point I was making was sarcastic . We get angry when we see such demeaning words towards this individual. We would never say anything unkind to him. I know I wouldn't. I wish I had the chance to meet him. In Search of Christian Freedom was a lifesaver for me. I have noticed that those who have continued in their worship, really don't slam atheists and constantly ridicule them unless they are attacked. However, if anyone talks about God, so many jump on the chance to ridicule. You can't tell a believer that you respect Franz and then add, even if he worshipped an "imaginary God." That is not respectful. That would be like me saying: "I respect the views of atheists even though they are ignorant." My point is simple: If you would never speak to Franz in some demeaning way and try to undermine his faith, why do it to others? I realize that all don't do that. But for those that do....

    PS: I appreciate violias comment. A very thoughtful and compassionate comment.😌

  • The Rebel
    The Rebel

    So there was method in your madness vinman. I definitely need to learn that what we write may come across dirty, but our thoughts may be clean. I am pleased your thoughts were sarcastic, but even if they hadn't have been it still takes great courage to put an honest viewpoint out on a forum.

    The Rebel.

  • vinman

    The Rebel:

    Thank you 😌

  • Pubsinger

    I agree with Vinman. Although I too didn't realise the point he was trying to make either until I read the whole thread with his added comments.

    So stop having a go and read before you post. He doesn't think Ray Franz was an idiot or a moron.

  • steve2

    Pubsinger, good advice indeed to read the whole thread.

    That said, sarcasm out of context creates confusion and ends up doing the opposite of its author's intentions. It backfires. For the author to then need to spend an inordinate time explaining and clarifying his points suggests the method - I.e, sarcasm - obscured the important message. It's like a parable that becomes more compelling than the underlying "truth" it seeks to illustrate. Why would any author with undoubtedly good points to make bury them in heavy handed sarcasm or satire?

    BTW, I strongly disagree with the premise that posters on this forum routinely use words such as "idiot" and "moron" against posters who espouse religious beliefs. Sure, exchanges can be heated and strong language used - but rarely are those words used to describe the individual, although those words might be used to describe a belief ( e.g, as in an " idiotic teaching").

    For the record, I am an athiest who cannot quite divest himself of the allure of a stronger being who promises all will be fine. But I recognise the contradiction and accept that my need for consolation is not a sound basis for belief.

    From time to time I hear from someone whose manner with their beliefs stirs up in me a huge amount of respect. Ray was one such individual who had such a significant impact on me.

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