by vinman 96 Replies latest watchtower scandals
Franz wasn't an idiotic, perhaps a little under educated concerning ancient mythology but I see him as a man of intergrity that over time couldn't support the inhernet corruption of the WTS and its leaders.
He's helped many realize that the WTS/JWS is just a man made organization for men who were desirous for power, control and money. A pretentious fraud framed within an organized religious publishing house..
Ray may have continued to be a deluded theist, but I think that his continued christian-theism delusion did a lot more good than would have been done if he became an atheist.
You see, if Ray had become an atheist then much fewer JWs would have woken up as a result of his defection. Had he become an atheist then Watchtower's characterization of his as an apostate would have seemed even more justified and would have had far more credibility with JWs.
But because he continued to be a christian he maintained a valuable common ground with JWs - the bible, belief in Jehovah, Jesus, christianity - which he can use to help them see Watchtower's error. A person who believes the bible and knows it well, has a greater chance of being able to help JWs see the error of their ways in light of the bible; than would an atheist trying to disprove Watchtower. The JW will completely shut his mind to the latter, but will give a measure of attention and credence to what the former has to say - to the extent that he can show its coming from the bible.
So Ray was a very valuable asset in helping many escape Watchtower. Many who later became atheists, started their journey out of Watchtower by reading Ray's books. That journey may never have started if Ray was an atheist. No God-believing JW is going to give credence to an atheist's criticisms of Watchtower. So Ray serves as a valuable stepping stone or gateway from Watchtower to atheism - for those who do later become atheists. For most, the journey cannot be straight from Watchtower to atheism. It has to be from Watchtower to more moderate theism and then atheism.
Don't be dissing Ray.
Well said Island Man
I guess I don't see this on this forum. I see name calling, calling God names, and much arrogance and disrespect.
What you see here is usually beliefs being ridiculed, not people. I rarely see people being attacked unless they persist in repeating things that have been proven, over and over, to be arguments entirely without merit and patently untrue. Even then, most posters will talk about the false belief, not the person. This is a discussion forum on religion, in what universe would there not be disagreements when any group of people discuss religion?
I am an Atheist, but I still respect Ray for standing up for what he believed in and not taking the easy route. Thanks to him many have gotten out of this religion, I respect that, even if I don't share his belief in Christ. From all accounts he was also a heck of a nice guy. His being a Christian doesn't change that fact.
Frankly, the worst name calling I have seen in a while was this op from you. I don't read every post, so if you have seen worse name calling recently, copy it here and we can discuss the name calling problem on the forum.
Vinman
Just about everyone here is in some stage of learning what we call, TTATT( the truth about the truth). Some of us are bitter and angry. Some of us are depressed and some are suicidal, or have other mental issues . Some of us have stunted emotional maturity due to not being allowed to grow up more or less in a normal fashion . Most of us are not used to debating b/c we were not allowed to have any opinions other than " the Watchtower say, Bro. Elder says, or the Governing Body says. So you will see name calling but if you had been around here when this board first started you would not even recognize it. There were out and out flame wars and the board nearly went down in flames a few times. Recovery from a Cult is hard and all of us are at different stages . Plus all of us have different reasons why we left the BORG.
This is not an organized religion - it is a discussion board by a lot of folks who used to be jws or were married to one or are Bible studies and some who post are still members in good standing in the Borg. So there you have it.
Franz was a brave honest man who could have faked it in Bethel till he died. But he did not. Most of us really respect him. Live and let live.
No matter what I believe, I am not calling out others as idiotic simply for disagreeing. Its disrespectful and is a hangover reaction to being in a fundy religion. If one goes from disrespect to disrespect every time others disagree with them, then the problems and intolerance they had in one belief system will simply get a new brand of ugly.
I dont understand why ugly hateful words have to be used when it is possible to have reasonable discourse and disagreement.
Ray Franz left in a time well before the internet and Youtube. I have nothing but respect for those who left during this time.
Personally, can I criticize anyone about how they left? I am just thankful he did leave and his words gave me much consolation during those first weeks. They also helped wake my wife up and led her to do further research.
I fully recommend Franzs' honest book. It is absent of vitriolic writing. He simply tells it like it was....Is leaving easy for anyone??? What he speaks can now be fully researched online as well.
In Crisis of Conscience Ray broke the spell of The Watchtower and thousands of Jehovah's Witnesses were empowered to plan their exit from the cult. Where they went after that was up to them.
I couldn't disagree more with Ray's final conclusions as he discussed them in ISOCF but I will always be grateful to the man for having the balls to speak up at a great cost to both himself and Cynthia.
I hope vinman, you aren't expecting the same respect that even a die-hard but grateful atheist like myself can give to Mr Franz to also be granted to some mythical deity? Do I even need to explain why that is so unreasonable?
Ray Franz ................ was an absolute moron
I strongly disagree.
