VA shooting suspect was raised a JW! He mentions it on his Twitter account

by WingCommander 324 Replies latest jw friends

• 

  Fisherman

  these people did not have mental health issues

  I agree. These are angry people lashing out. Agree, it is insane what they do, but they have their reason for their madness, same as terrorist do and same as nations that drop bombs and kill innocent people and Presidents and Dictators and Kings and Police that have tortured and massacred people--and they have gotten away with it. Is that mental illness? People get angry, people get outraged, people lash out, either individually or in groups--but is that mental illness? Will gun control help the problem? I think that maybe a little, but it depends on what that means. In cities that regulates guns, any criminal can get get guns, for example, in NYC, there is gun control , but armed robbery with all kinds of guns was rampant for decades. The only people unarmed were the law abiding citizens and the victims of the crimes. About a year ago, gun control did not stop a madman for shooting 2 PO sitting in their car and then killing himself. That killing seemed like retaliation to me for the innocent man that was killed accidentally by a PO. If the government wants to do gun control, it has to be like how the Cubans got rid of all the guns in their country. They told me that even the police did not have guns. However, if gun control means like they do in some US cities, it does not mean anything. Anyone that wants to commit a crime can get a gun and lash out or do what he wants. Drugs like Heroine and Cocaine and other "Schedule" substances are controlled, but people get tons of it.

  Should you blame the newspaper when they publish about abuse of power and oppression by some people in office, for example, a news article I read stated that some prosecutor in Texas was found guilty of malicious prosecution, putting a man in jail for about 20 years (not sure if it was 40.) Although he enjoys immunity, he was sentenced to about a day in jail. (I wonder if he survived. Did not read any more about it. But they probably put him in protective custody for the day.) But are the newspapers doing wrong in publishing and exposing injustice and abuse of power? Should they be blamed when people lash out?

  Regarding the lowering of violent crimes in the US to 50 percent, I think that is true reflecting armed robbery and drug killings, gangs, organized crime, and the such. The killings now are from inspired terrorism, and retaliation motivated killing sprees, and acts of vengeance. Is that mental illness? That is the Defense's theory.
  

  
  
• 

  The Rebel

  Personally I just signed a petition, Govenor Fallin: Grant, Richard Glossip a stay of execution. Glossip is scheduled for execution on September 16th convicted on the testimony of his co- worker who avoided the death penalty by implicating Richard.

  What does this have to do with this thread?

  Well the O.P suggested we should blame the W,T for Williams actions and I say that's bullshit. But I think we can blame a country ( regardless of our different viewpoint on guns) that puts a man to death on September 16th on a case that is so shallow.

  So as individuals we can make a difference to senseless murder. Please check out the injustice of this case and then if you agree sign the petition. ( Dr Phil is opening his new season early to highlight this injustice)

  September 16th is not long away.

  The Rebel.
• 

  freemindfade

  Mr Stratofortress...
  

  Ok, so you've identified a root cause. According to your 'root cause analysis,' it's revenge (on steroids) which motivates killers like Dylan and Erick of Columbine Infamy.

  Wrong. I am saying the INFAMY motivates them. It’s not revenge, its revenge on a stage. But beyond that I am saying things changed with them. They set a new standard that each wacko has been trying to achieve since.
  

  Now let's say, that as someone in the aviation field, I wanted to find a root cause as to why planes crash. By applying similar logic as you have, I deduce that gravity is to blame. Therefore, I ask the manufacturers to design an anti-gravity device. Then, I'll see about getting ejection seats installed in all passenger seats. You see where I'm going with this?

  I don’t because it makes no sense. A more intelligent analogy would be why someone would intentionally crash a plane. I’m not analyzing why or how a bullet kills someone when it hits them. Sorry this nonsense is completely lost on me.
  It's obviously impossible to address this root cause directly. All I have suggested is that when a sensational shooting happens in America, it is oversimplified to ‘Gun Control’ to promote a special interest when yes there are a lot of factors, guns being one.
  

  Now, back to Dylan and Erick. Their motivation was revenge. On steroids, as you say. Fine. Now, what solution do you propose?

  Did I say I had a solution? Nope. I didn’t . If this phenomenon has transcended simply a gun control problem, does it make sense for us to put blinders on to all other factors? And just guns guns guns it was guns that caused this. That’s a Band-Aid.
  

  Now that you've identified a cause. Do you want to develop a device that flies around and measures peoples' 'motivation for revenge?' Should we come up with 'thought police' as in "1984." Hmmm, a bit impractical as I see it.

  Your fallacious reasoning suggests I implied anything like this. When I did not, these are your ideas my friend. Don’t put things out there like this, this kind of stuff doesn’t go over well here.
  I wake up every day without fear, and I live my life standing up. I could be walking down the street and somebody who just got fired or screwed over could decide to plow into me and my dog for no reason. The universe is indifferent. It sucks, and shit happens. I am fine not being in control. But I wont be a paranoid pu$$y like I hear being talked about on here, “I won’t go to America or I’ll be murdered”. I go to your countries even though most of you are very passive to something far more insidious, Islamic extremists. But I don’t act like a big baby and bitch about it, because I am going to live my life in absolute paranoia or wait on the government and police to solve every problem I might have, no more than I am “waiting on Jehovah” to fix everything.
  

  You want to blame sensationalist media? Then I assume you're ok with trashing the First Amendment.

  Again dude, the fallacies. You are very good at using the straw man fallacy over and over. You must have been a fantastic witness. Elder? Pioneer maybe? You are in effect saying that because I think the United States Media sensationalizes stories involving murder and fear and suffering, that I disagree with the first amendment. I never said “do away with the media” or “do away with the first amendment”. I personally ignore sensational media sources. And most news all together. That has nothing to do with you just stated.
  

  Prior to this massacre, there had been others, though not as large. Since the buyback program, there have been no such massacres at all, in Aussie land since '96. NONE. Now, keep in mind, that there have likely been people there, who were 'motivated by revenge on steroids.' But it's a but hard to act out these motivations if you have no, or at least restricted access to the tools that make this possible. And please, spare us the nonsense about how..."they can use a machete." Or, " they can get a can of gasoline and start a fire." Yes, there have been very isolated incidents like this here and there, but you can't even BEGIN to equate that with the chronic mass shooting problem as it exists in the US.

  America has a ‘gun’ psychology, jihadists have a 'tie a bomb to your ass psychology'. Again none of what you are saying has to do with my position that there is a psychology to commit sensationalized spree shootings in a America. You are still talking about gun laws and patting Australia on the back. You are all very knowledgeable of the efficient killing capability of a firearm, but if fatality numbers were all these folks cared about, they would go the Timothy McVey route, shit he killed 168 people and injured like 600 others without firing a shot, he also didn’t go shoot himself. Motive. The spree shooting is about more than death.
  

  A) Imitate the Australian example. Which is heavy restriction to gun access. Part of the reason this has worked in Australia is geography. It's more difficult to smuggle illegal weapons onto an island. Hence, US borders would need some major beefing up.
  or
  B) Follow the Swiss example. Which is an expansion of regulation, over not just guns, but ammo as well. Perhaps expand the idea of National Guard, or IRR (ready reserves) to allow for assault weapons to be kept at home, but with strict rules on training, procedures, and weapon securing. Also include strict penalties for non-compmiance. So, your kid gets hold of your weapon, and shoots up his school, then your irresponsible ass is going to Leavenworth for a looong time.

  These solutions still are too basic. EVERYONE wants to cherry pick what they think it is. But they miss the point. One of the best articles I have read that describes what I am getting and, and you don’t seem to understand is this.
  http://markmanson.net/school-shootings
  Here are some of the things I took out of it, I hope help you understand, but I recommend reading the whole thing.
  By 1999, there had already been a series of school shootings across the United States… They were small-time jobs, amateur hour. Eric was far more interested in Timothy McVeigh’s bombing of the Oklahoma City federal building…
  But he didn’t just want to top the body count, he wanted to top the notoriety, the fame, the horror. He wanted to terrorize people and he understood that his best weapon was not the guns he secretly purchased or the bombs he built in his basement — it was television. He would not kill jocks or preps, he would kill indiscriminately, because that’s what caused the most fear and got the most attention. He wouldn’t just blow up the school, but he’d blow up the parking lot, the police cars and the firefighters and the journalists who rushed to the scene. He would, quite literally, go out with a bang, the shockwaves of which, carried by mass media and the internet, would reverberate through the world for decades.
  As chaos engulfed the school in Colorado, it would quickly fan out accros the country, commanding more or less 24-hour television coverage for weeks on end. The drama would be replayed endlessly — bloodied and crippled students climbing out of the library window, the heroic coach who lost his life saving dozens of kids. And then there would be the questions and the speculation. Why? First it was goth culture and Marilyn Manson. Then it was bullying. Then it was being social loners and outcasts.All of the explanations were later discovered to be untrue. The event truly seemed inexplicable. And because it was inexplicable the media and the viewers couldn’t let it go. Books were written. Memorials were built and ceremonies filled out. Eric Harris got his death wish: “Columbine” was a household name.But this “witch hunt” we go through every time a school shooting happens is a total ruse. Elliot Rodger didn’t become a killer because he was a misogynist; he became a misogynist because he was a killer. Just like Eric Harris didn’t become a killer because he loved violent video games; he loved violent video games because he was a killer. Just like Adam Lanza didn’t become a killer because he loved guns; he loved guns because he was a killer.Every school shooting incident comes in the same dreary package: an angry, politically-charged rant, shrink-wrapped around a core of mental illness and neglect. These shooters leave behind journals, videos, diagrams, manifestos and treatises. They broadcast their plans and intentions to their friends and family. They email news outlets minutes before they start firing. They write down their plans and make checklists so that others may follow in their footsteps. They go on angry rants against materialism, hedonism, the government, mass media, women, and sometimes even the people close to them.
  And each time, as a culture, we work ourselves into a frenzy debating the angry exterior message, while ignoring the interior life and context of each killer. We miss the point entirely.According to the FBI, mass shootings (defined as shooting events that kill at least four people) occur on average every two weeks in the United States. Yes, every two weeks. Yet we rarely, if ever, hear about most of them. The reason is because these shootings are easily explainable. In most mass shootings, the crimes occur at a private location and the victims are people close and well-known to the shooter — family members, neighbors, friends. Many of them are attributable to gang violence or illicit criminal activities. Others are a crime of passion.
  School shootings only account for 4% of all mass shootings and yet they dominate the news media and get the entire country talking about them for weeks on end.
  There are a few reasons for this:
  They occur in everyday public locations which are supposed to be safe.

  • The victims are targeted and killed at random.
  • The victims are innocent bystanders and often children.
  • The killers leave behind large amounts of material about themselves for the media to share.
  • The perpetrator and victims are generally upper-middle class, white, and privileged.
  • These shooters know what they are doing.

  They’re not “crazy.” They don’t just “snap.” Most of them spend months or years planning their massacres. Elliot Rodger had apparently been planning his shooting for over a year. You don’t just show up with a 140-page manifesto and a large stockpile of weapons one day. You work at it for a long time. And you plan not only the violence, but the presentation for the audience, the performance — what they will see from you, what they will hear from you, the reasons why, the message. It’s all very conscious and deliberate.

  And it works. Their killing sprees are specifically targeted to generate the most fear and uncertainty from the public, because the more fear and uncertainty they generate, the more attention they get. They then use all of the attention as a platform to promote themselves or whatever complaints they may have against society. It’s the Columbine formula. It works. And as Eric Harris pointed out in his journal, it’s not about the guns. It’s about the television. The films. The fame. The revolution.
  An FBI study on school shooters found school shootings are never a result of a crazy person “snapping.” Most shooters do have serious mental health or emotional issues, but they all plan their attacks months or even years in advance. And as they plan, they almost always “leak” information about the attack beforehand, sometimes intentionally, and sometimes in incredibly obvious ways.
  Both Harris and Rodger had the police called on them multiple times due to suspicious behavior. Both of them had a history of strange and violent outbursts towards friends and those close to them. Both put their intentions and their angry rants up on the web for everyone to see. Elliot Rodger wrote and re-wrote his plan out, sometimes including murdering his family members and stealing their car. He wrote that if someone had just searched his room, it would have all come apart, he would have been found out. Eric Harris wrote almost the exact same thing 15 years earlier.
  Seung-Hui Cho, the Virginia Tech shooter who killed 32 people, turned in paper after paper that depicted gruesome killings and gun violence. He had a history of mental health issues and had been reported to the campus police four times for aggressive and antisocial behavior, particularly towards women. One of his professors went so far as to tell the board that she would rather resign than teach another class with him in it.
  Adam Lanza, the Sandy Hook shooter, also had a history of mental illness and inappropriate anti-social behavior. And he too, began sharing his intentions online through forum posts and audio. Lanza had paranoid delusions about mass media and the government, and began to argue that school shootings were justified as a form of protest or revolt. People humored him and ignored him. No one realized he had a small armory of semi-automatic weapons in his house…
  Gun control gets the headlines. Mental health care gets the headlines. Violence and video games and misogyny and internet forums and atheism — the list is endless at this point…
  Despite being relevant and important discussions, the glamorous headlines are ultimately distractions — they just feed into the carnage and the attention and the fame the killer desired. They are distractions from what is right in front of you and me and the victims of tomorrow’s shooting: people who need help. And while we’re all fighting over whose pet cause is more right and more true and more noble, there’s likely another young man out there, maybe suicidally depressed, maybe paranoid and delusional, maybe a psychopath, and he’s researching guns and bombs and mapping out schools and recording videos and thinking every day about the anger and hate he feels for this world.
  And no one is paying attention to him.
  
• 

  Billyblobber

  I kind of agree a lot with the above quote.

  All of these "American headlines discussions" that we have on here seem to have a big problem due to a lot of people outside of the country commenting on solutions to what is happening inside the country based on the news that reaches them now, as opposed to actually being in and -living- here, and understanding why things are the way they are. For example:

  - Commenting on the current civil/racial unrest and movements and not knowing anything about the redlining, zoning, and destruction of progress from outside sources in the mid-late 20th century that created multiple current troubled inner city ghettos that most of those things focus around at their core.

  - Commenting on current instances of violence without being privy to the constant news cycle that surrounds it, or having any knowledge of the decline of mental health support in the country that started with Reagan.
  
  - Speaking about gun culture without being immersed in it due to living around it, and seeing how the media basically uses that issue to constantly manipulate people divided along party lines.
  
  That makes all of these discussions circular - or you get to a point where you attempt to explain how things actually are, or why they are that way (which leads to fixing underlying problems as opposed to providing easy answers), and people on the "outside" basically say, "I don't believe you, I'm right" and it goes nowhere.
• 

  Boeing Stratofortress

  But I wont be a paranoid pu$$y like I hear being talked about on here,

  Ok, that's a new low "friend." I've been around guns all my life. I've spent many a day in third world shitholes. Hell, I used to be based in Khobar, site of the terrorist attack. All I'm doing is trying to expand the debate on accountability. Either by gun restriction, or regulation. I too, walk down the street without cowering, or living my life under a rock, just as I've done while overseas, in 3rd world backwaters. There are alot of people, women and children, who don't share your John Wayne bravado. There are a lot of people--US citizens who VOTE, that think we, in the US can do better than a 3rd world banana republic, when it comes to gun policy. The fact is that the Swiss example works. The Aussie example works. Not saying that we copy them verbatim. And neither model, SPECIFICALLY the Swiss one, equates to..."their gonna git our guns!!!" But, by your standards, they're all pussys anyway, right?

  I'd like to see you walk into an Aussie pub and set your glass on the counter, upside-down. Then, you can get back to me on how the Aussies are all "pussys."

  If you had the guts to call me that in my face, it wouldn't go down well, "friend." Are you sure you don't keep a big gun around to compensate for something else you lack?

  I've had enough of your mindless, circular reasoning. You obviously don't care to admit that the US has a problem, or if you do, then you don't want to do anything about it. Fine. Like the old saying goes, "lead, follow, or get out of the way."

  Like 'The Rebel,' mentioned, individuals can make a difference. And we will. So, step aside little boy, and let the grown-ups deal with this.

  Oh, and no, I'm not a JW, or elder. Never was, and never will be, as you allege, in your insulting tone. But, I'll have to say, that my hat goes off to such people, who, after serving YEARS in the Watchtower, finally come up with some doubts on their own. And based on those doubts, they take the brave steps to leave the organization. THAT takes GUTS!!
• 

  Billyblobber

  LoveHateUni, you wrote:
  
  

  Then if you have been that close to someone bipolar - yes, I was. I love my mum more than anyone else in the world.

  you should be familiar with the symptoms and the constant rambling subject changes and paranoia - I have some familiarity, yes. I lived with my mum for the first 18 years of my life. She refused to take lithium three times, and subsequently went 'high' and was hospitalised, on three occasions. At no time was she violent, said 'violent things', or gave any other indication towards violence. The worst thing she ever did was cheat on my dad one time with another inpatient.

  wouldn't be asking those types of questions - f**k off! I will not be lectured over the internet by arrogant pr1cks. I can ask any damn question I like. Geddit?!

  What concerns me is that it's only one step from blaming crimes on mental illness to blaming 'the authorities' or 'the white power structure', or similar, and regarding the perpetrator as the victim.

  Here's my qualifications: although I have no formal qualifications on mental illness, I have lived with someone afflicted with bipolar disorder (my mum) for the first 18 years of my life.

  From 2009 to 2011 - I received a National Diploma in Animal Management at [redacted] College, grade: distinction; merit; merit.

  From 2012 to 2015 - I received a BSc (Hons) in Animal Biology at [redacted] University, grade: First Class.

  Now who the f**k are you?!
  
  You seem to be looking at things strictly through an either/or lens and missing all of the nuance that some of us are referring to, and thus arguing against something that no one is really saying.

  You're reading what people are saying as conflating bipolar people as a default with violence. Thus your defense of "my mom was bipolar, but she was never violent." That's not what's being said.

  What is being said that if someone leans violent for whatever reason, having mental issues like bipolar mood swings or bipolar or schizophrenic paranoia or delusions can magnify it greatly. Combine that with an easy access to guns, and you have a recipe for disaster.
  
  It's no different than the guns + curable severe depression combination. Not everyone that is severely depressed will commit suicide, but if they have easy gun access, then it's dangerous because they're more likely to be able to go through with the act.

  So the point I was alluding to with the statements about the symptoms was that if you understand the paranoia and hallucinations that go along with those issues, and combine it with someone who has a lot of inner anger and access to a weapon, and you have potential problems. Dylan Root is another example; he had documented mental issues, was constantly fed a ton of anti-black rhetoric including race-hating sites he participated in, which gave him a target for an outlet for his issue, and then he had access to guns and was unfortunately able to act on this combination. This guy had the crazy JW background, lived through some actual hate due to his race/sexuality mix, probably had a mental problem, from everyone that knew him's statements, had a lot of inner anger, and had access to weapons. Horrible combination of things.
  
  As for my background, since you asked:
  
  - I lived with a paranoid schizophrenic JW mother until my 20's. I spent a lot of time visiting her in mental hospitals and saw other brands of mental illness there, and I also saw the gradual collapse of mental institutions and all of those people released out on the street or to their families to basically fend for themselves through the 80s/90s. My mother was rarely violent, although there were times where she would go on JW inspired rants about being possessed by demons or God talking to her or Satan talking to her where she had to be restrained when off-medication. Fortunately, we had nothing more than kitchen knives in the house at those times.
  
  - I've had 2 years of collegiate psych and social science classes.
  
  - I dated (and am now close friends with) a professor of social work at one of the colleges in this state. I have also done a lot of side by side work with social workers dealing directly with the mentally ill and have seen the entire spectrum, from the incarcerated violent, to the non-violent - and a range of "out on the street" to "being cared for and doing well." As such, I've seen the utter lack of infrastructure and support for these people, as well as many cases of the downhill turn many make when losing familial support.
  
  So that's the background we asked for. It seems like we relate in a few areas, especially growing up with the close parent with mental illness. The difference here is that you seem focused on assigning "blame" to the individual that commits horrible acts, where I attempt to focus on improving the social conditions that contribute to creating these situations, to help minimize these situations as a whole in the future.
• 

  freemindfade

  Ok, that's a new low "friend." I've been around guns all my life. I've spent many a day in third world shitholes. Hell, I used to be based in Khobar, site of the terrorist attack. All I'm doing is trying to expand the debate on accountability. Either by gun restriction, or regulation. I too, walk down the street without cowering, or living my life under a rock, just as I've done while overseas, in 3rd world backwaters. There are alot of people, women and children, who don't share your John Wayne bravado. There are a lot of people--US citizens who VOTE, that think we, in the US can do better than a 3rd world banana republic, when it comes to gun policy. The fact is that the Swiss example works. The Aussie example works. Not saying that we copy them verbatim. And neither model, SPECIFICALLY the Swiss one, equates to..."their gonna git our guns!!!" But, by your standards, they're all pussys anyway, right?

  You didn't read anything did you. I am not debating the gun part. Your John Wayne reference and gun policy, I am not talking about that but you keep going back to it. I've already said legal or illegal I don't care. Easy to get hard to get, whatever. All I can control is that I am not a psycho bent on spree killings. I have nothing to do with the NRA or any kind of pro gun anything. being afraid to come to America like I hear on here is comical.

  You obviously don't care to admit that the US has a problem, or if you do, then you don't want to do anything about it. Fine. Like the old saying goes, "lead, follow, or get out of the way."

  Again you are straw maning this to death. Ive been saying that America has multiple problems if you had been paying attention.

  I'd like to see you walk into an Aussie pub and set your glass on the counter, upside-down. Then, you can get back to me on how the Aussies are all "pussys."

  *yawn*

  If you had the guts to call me that in my face, it wouldn't go down well, "friend."

  *yawn again*

  Are you sure you don't keep a big gun around to compensate for something else you lack?

  Well... i never speak for myself, that wouldn't make any sense, but maybe I can find some nice Australian ladies not to afraid to visit america to check that out for you ;)

  Like 'The Rebel,' mentioned, individuals can make a difference. And we will. So, step aside little boy, and let the grown-ups deal with this.

  You've missed everything I've said, probably from your blind emotional rage. My whole point in my last post was what a small difference the individual can make. Most of these spree shooters have something in common, they leak information of what they are going to do. if the individual paid attention to others they could prevent a lot of mess, but it turns out that is more complicated than cherry picking sensational ideas from headlines.

  You seem pretty upset, perhaps you should take a deep breath and have a fosters. Its not worth having a stroke over a debate. I mean look at me, the John Wayne american cool headed, not pounding my chest and trying to act like a big scary man. Whats the world coming to.

  And for the record, i did not call Aussies pu$$ys. I was referring to someone so afraid and paranoid of america they wouldn't come here .
• 

  LoveUniHateExams

  Ok, thank you for that, Billyblobber.

  you seem focused on assigning "blame" to the individual that commits horrible acts - this is justice. It's very important.

  Justice must be done and must be seen to be done.

  I attempt to focus on improving the social conditions that contribute to creating these situations, to help minimize these situations as a whole in the future - a worthwhile pursuit, to be sure. But this endeavour must not interfere with justice.
• 

  Sofia Lose

  Well, now that many details are coming out about this individual, it is absolutely clear why he did not remain a JW. He was obviously a very sick in so many ways.

  SL
• 

  LoveUniHateExams

  dinky little country like the UK ... pu$$ys - seems like I'm not the only bigot commenting on this thread ...