i am new

by knight 66 Replies latest jw experiences

  • outnfree

    Dear Chris,

    I have no idea any longer if you are really in need of the help that has here been offered because of what I mentioned in my post under your "similar experience" thread. Stephen's remark about inconsistency in posts jogged my memory.

    Nonetheless, in the hope that this may help others who are lurking, if not you yourself, I have a few more things to say:

    "Debating" here does not bring me any personal glory. (Although I don't feel we've actually had a debate.) In fact, it seems to have brought me reproach, in your eyes. Hence your directing us to

    Matthew 12:31-37 which reads in part:
    "'On this account I say to YOU, Every sort of sin and blasphemy will be forgiven men, but the blasphemy against the spirit will not be forgiven. For example, whoever speaks a word against the Son of man, it will be forgiven him; but whoever speaks against the holy spirit, it will not be forgiven him, no, not in this system of things nor in that to come."

    Obviously, you feel that I have sinned against/grieved Jehovah's holy spirit. I wish you would specifically state how? And that you would kindly establish your credentials as my judge?

    The scripture continues:
    "'Either YOU people make the tree fine and its fruit fine or make the tree rotten and its fruit rotten; for by its fruit the tree is known.'"

    I have been saddened to realized that contrary to what I previously believed, the fruit of the Watch Tower Bible and Tract Society has NOT been "fine". The Society at the top is deceitful and unfeeling, neither of which things Christ demonstrated that his followers should be. Christ had pity. Christ did not lie because there was no sin in him. The WTBTS and its policies towards erring ones are callous. The way the WTBTS revises its history is deceitful. Is the Society grieving the holy spirit? I cannot judge. That will be left for Jesus to do. I only know that it grieved me, personally, and several others whom I know personally, as well as the many on this discussion board whom I do not know but who have reported suffering tremendous harm, both physically and psychologically.

    Yes, "'every unprofitable saying that men speak, they will render an account concerning it on Judgment Day; for by your words you will be declared righteous, and by your words you will be condemned."

    Many of the Watch Tower "flip-flops" alluded to above will likely bring condemnation on the Society as a whole. Because, just as the Pharisees to whom these words were addressed were blind guides leading the blind, so the WTBTS is bloodguilty for being guides that make extra-Biblical burdens for its adherents leading to physical death AND spiritual death of many who just cannot cope with the load imposed and so lose faith. Much is at stake here, as you know, Chris.

    Next, you refer us to Matthew 24:42-44 which admonishes Christ's followers to be on the alert that the Lord's day is imminent.

    I have confidence that Jehovah and Christ Jesus love me, that God's grace and Jesus' ransom sacrifice have covered over my sins, and that because of our relationship, I will be able to stand. Boastfulness?
    I hope you do not perceive it that way. Rather, I humbly appreciate the extent of God's mercy.

    Next is a reference to Matthew 24:48-51, where the indirect name calling continues:
    "'But if ever that evil slave should say in his heart, "My master is delaying," and should start to beat his fellow slaves and should eat and drink with the confirmed drunkards, the master of that slave will come on a day that he does not expect and in an hour that he does not know, and will punish him with the greatest severity and will assign him his part with the hypocrites. There is where [his] weeping and the gnashing of [his] teeth will be."

    See my statements above. Also, I have a long reputation among those who know me of NOT being a hypocrite. From an early age.

    When I was 14 I would not make my confirmation because, after study and prayer, I came to the conclusion that I disbelieved the Trinity. I went to my pastor for his insight. He could not explain it to my satisfaction. I said to him, "Well, I don't think I should go up on the altar and be confirmed when I don't really believe ALL of this." Why? Because I didn't want to be a hypocrite. The pastor agreed and suggested I not make my confirmation at that time.

    I spent years searching various Judeo-Christian sects for the "truth."
    I thought I found it when I realized that the Witnesses also disbelieved the Trinity and when they taught me so much from the Bible.

    However, the condescending attitude from the platform and the magazine regarding other religions always troubled me. And, casting a critical eye on my own organization, I found it had plenty of rafters to remove before pronouncing on the splinters elsewhere!

    What was the result? I recently -- a month ago yesterday -- disassociated myself from the congregation. Why? Because I no longer wanted to be a hypocrite. I didn't think it wise to be counted among those who proclaimed themselves God's only true organization when, it was clear to me, we weren't. (Luke 9:49-50)

    1 Peter 2:19-20:
    "For if someone, because of conscience toward God, bears up under grievous things and suffers unjustly, this is an agreeable thing. For what merit is there in it if, when you are sinning and being slapped, you endure it? But if, when you are doing good, and you suffer, you endure it, this is a thing agreeable with God."

    It seems to me that it is far more difficult "because of conscience toward God" to be called an apostate and shunned and to bear up under it than to equate the WTBTS as God and refuse to question it, thus remaining snugly inside with your delusions that you are being loyal to JEHOVAH.

    I consider what I am attempting to do here as "doing good" for which you would have me suffer from your hurtful citations, Chris, but I will happily endure in order to be agreeable to my loving God, Jehovah.

    Verses 21-23:
    "In fact, to this [course] you were called, because even Christ suffered for you, leaving you a model for you to follow his steps closely. He committed no sin, nor was deception found in his mouth. When he was being reviled, he did not go reviling in return. When he was suffering, he did not go threatening, but kept on committing himself to the one who judges righteously."

    Stephen made an EXCELLENT point when he said that during the 1700 years from the apostles to CT Russell "apostasy did not set in. What set in were people that just like today, here and now, [were] willing to fight against anything organized in GOD'S name that is unfair and ungodly."

  • crossroads

    Mat; 24:48-51
    Chris are you still there?
    This scripture is a parabale is it not?
    Faithful slave-Russell
    Evil slave-Ruthreford-turned organization 180 degrees from
    where Russell was taking them; also from things I have
    read Rutherford had a big big drinking problem among
    many other things but the scripture says drunkereds so
    thats why I mentioned that one.
    Then the evil slave will be cut assounder-Luke NKJV
    or in two-Matthew NKJV. check the greek these are closer.
    Question what recently happened to the GB-they resigned
    [cut in two]. Now I'm not saying I'm inspired on this issue
    but according to the way the insight book makes many of its
    arguments by thus and so -evidently means this. Why can't
    I ? After all I can not have a worse record than the society
    to my knowledge they have not got anything right yet.
    Love the Day-Mark

  • outnfree


    All those lovely little sects and individuals that the Watchtower features: Michael Servetus, Waldenses, etc., what were they doing? Weren't they pointing out the ungodly doctrines being spread by orthodox Christianity? Weren't they putting their consciences, freedoms, very LIVES, on the line, (as Christ did) to point out the hypocrisy and wrongness of the prevailing religious traditions? Wasn't Christ's model really to steadfastly refute wrong doctrine and to point out that the religious leaders of his day were more concerned with the letter of the Law than the spirit of the Law?

    Well, I posit that the Watch Tower Bible and Tract Society and its Governing Body (Christian Congregation?) are more concerned with keeping its rank and file membership in submission to ITSELF than in submission to Christ Jesus and the better way he preached: Two laws -- Love Jehovah God with all your heart, mind, soul & strength, and love your neighbor as yourself.

    In trying to love you as much as I have allowed me to love myself in recent months, I have attempted with these several posts to point out to you that your spiritual life is in danger if you continue to blindly follow the blind guides who are the leaders of the Society which you support but do not know.

    All I ask, Chris, is that you investigate what it is, really, that you are supporting. After that, the decision to go or stay, accept or reject is entirely your own.

    If you find that the organization which claims to have Christ as its head leading the faithful and discreet slave by God's holy spirit, whose members are to model themselves upon Christ, "follow[ing] his steps closely," has proven to you that there is "no deception ...in [its] mouth" then you will truly be able to rejoice that you have found "the Truth"! And you will be able to defend your faith in it and all its teachings.

    "ALL its teachings?" Well, I certainly hope that you don't doubt just one, teeny, tiny teaching, because if you disbelieve it, you know what the elders have been instructed to do, don't you? Judicial committee time! And if you unhypocritically refuse to be "adjusted" you will be disfellowshipped. (For contrast: Luke 15:20.)

    Anyway, by way of conclusion, Chris, I'd like to quote that December 1, 2000 Watchtower article I referred to in my earlier post and make a final comment:

    "Even when someome with vastly superior knowledge presents a carefully crafted and seemingly unassailable argument, a listener need not believe a foolish conclusion simply because he cannot disprove it at the time. ... However knowledgeable they may be, experts in any field may have conflicting ideas and shifting opinions. ... Whatever authority people may arrogate to themselves, you do not have to accept their conclusions if they contradict God, ignore his Word, and violate common sense." (pages 29-31)

    This was meant to protect you from "smooth speakers" like me, but turn the principle around, please, and measure the WTBTS with it as well.

    "Because a foolish thing of God is wiser than men, and a weak thing of God is stronger than men." -- 1 Corinthians 1:25


  • stephenw20


    well said......

    it will be crossroads turn to respond to chris in length next time!



  • larc


    I will restrict my comments to the one question I addressed, that was also addressed by several others.

    You made an assertion about spokesmen. I asked about different periods in history. You responded with a weak answer. I pointed out that a 1700 year period was not explained well in your anwswer. You responded with insults. I and others pointed out that you had not answered the question. You responded that "debate" was not good and implied that we were seeking glory for ourselves. First of all, I did not enter into a debate. I asked you to explain the reasoning behind your assertion. For you to insult, then to state that debate is wrong is not an answer. As I said before, you shouldn't make assertions if you can't support them.

  • outnfree


    Without seeming like an immodest glory seeker,

    Thank you.


  • crossroads

    Steve, no I won't waste my time with a lenghty response.
    There is know use Chris's blinders are still firmly in
    place. You, Larc, Outnfree, have all made outstantding
    points. How could I better them? Like Larc said Chris
    does not respond to the questions anyway. Following
    the example of all in the "DARKNESS" who change
    the subject when pushed on doctrine.
    But Chris I'll leave you with this. Please pick-up another
    version of the bible, I really don't care who's just not
    the catholic one or Freddies[which you already have].
    Pray for HIS spirit to be with you-open to the book of
    1 John and start reading-not like a story book-but read
    each verse like HE is talking to you. Ask yourself what is
    HE telling me. If after reading there is a glimpse of light
    than go to the gospel of John-always praying for HIS spirit
    to be with you.
    I am waiting to see you in the LIGHT, I know Stephen is too.
    As for Larc and Outnfree I can't speak for them.Other than
    saying they each but in a lot ot time and effort in trying to
    enlighten you more of what is written .
    May you find the "TRUTH" because it trully will set you free.

  • stephenw20

    Hi all,
    I wanted to bring this back up to the top... in case its hard for Chris to find her way here...............


  • outnfree

    Gee, S, I got all excited that there was a response here!

    But it was just you.

    There is also no response to my post on chris' "similar experience" thread elsewhere in this forum.

    Troll? Too bad I'm not still counting field service hours...


  • claudia

    You know I bet shes reading all these posts though, thats what counts.......planting seeds

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