i am new
Thanks for the note. Only one of the elders came a bit strong on his comments. The other one was just listening. I know Jehovah understands my situation. As to your questions, the Bible doesn't make a distinction between rp and publishers. It does urge all to give it our best efforts. Another thing, salvation is not earned by how many hours one puts in. The Bible stresses quality not quantity, heart motives in service. Salvation is not earned by works, it is a gift Jah gives. Works are there as part of faith. Individuals vary in their works due to circumstances.
Welcome to the board Chris and Knight!! Hope to hear more from you!
I also am very new here and only recently found
out that I fell into the same "organization" themed
cess pit concept.
The examples you gave are "individual" men. God
always worked thru individuals, never never never
any organization. The jw mantra is that god could
not be unorganized therefore ( read here 'ergo hoc
prop alter ergo hoc' i think) he MUST have had
an organization, and further more after "spirit direction"
it must be us!!!!!! read what ct russell said about
organizations. there are entire sites debunking the
idea of "the organization".
There were times in ancient days when there were two
prophets living and preaching at the same time and
did not even know the other existed. organized????
I do not wish to sound harsh but this "organization"
mantra has become a very hot button for me lately.
IMVHO I have come to doubt, backed by study, nearly
everything or anything the "society", "organ", WT, GB
says prints or other. where as at one time i "swallowed."
Greeting and enjoy,
of the swallow class <not no mo>
I have read through this thread pretty quickly. So I hope that I am not mis-speaking. IMO, it is difficult to imagine that the men in the Society are appointed by HS. I feel this way because of the many drastic mistakes with life shattering results that have been made. Many times in my years of being a JW, I have seen elders make judgments based soley on opinion and personality differences. Many times within the congregation arrangement I have noticed that the elders allow their good sense to be swayed by their wives petty jealousies and pecadillos. Personally I have a problem with this. How could HS appoint these one's and then allow such collosal mistakes to be made?
Just a thought.
Before i go on, i'd like you to know that i'm not so sure of how you understand the term 'organization' based on your notes. As to Jehovah not having any organization at all, just individual men, pls. consider some examples. Abraham was God's spokesman for his large family & later on his descendants. Moses was God's spokesman in behalf of the Israelites. Jesus was God's spokesman who organized his apostles & later on disciples. After his death, this organization carried on in the work he gave them. Jesus himself set the precedent. I'm not sure of your meaning on organization, but basing it on your comments it seems that being organized implied being in the same place all the time? But isn't it true that being organized can also mean possibly being in different locations & yet same beliefs? For example, the prophets you were saying might be physically apart but are united in their preaching of the same message from Jehovah? Also, the early Christian congregation are based mainly on Jerusalem. But as the preaching work spread abroad, it would require arrangement & organization to function & succeed as it did. The proof is there of Jehovah's blessings for the congregations flourished. Organization by Jehovah is not only limited with men nor did it start with men. Even in the heavens, as shown in Ezekiel's vision, organization is evident. Organized armies of angels.
Another thing. We are urged by the apostle Paul not just to 'swallow' everything that's said. Acts 17:11 mentions Paul's commendation for the ancient Beroeans who 'received the word with the greatest eagerness of mind, carefully examining the Scriptures daily as to whether these things were so.' We are likewise encouraged to do the same.
Just a thought. Here's some real life situations: denial of Jesus by Peter on the night of his trial; constant argument of the apostles as to who is greatest among them despite corrections by Jesus; Peter's showing partiality between Jews & Gentiles corrected publicly by Paul; seeming favoritism in the distribution of food in the famine in Jerusalem between Jews & Gentiles, etc.
Men appointed by holy spirit but not perfect. Serious mistakes made to observers or fellow believers at the time. But Jehovah continued to use them for His purpose, provided they accept His correction. Jehovah knows of what happened then & He also knows of what's happening now. With being appointed by holy spirit, a privilege, comes a huge responsibility to use that wisely. Privilege given by Jah equals accountability to Jehovah. Be assured He will act in his time.
I'm starting to feel bad that the "Welcome, Knight" thread has become the "chris-has-there-always-been-an-organization?" thread, but nonetheless would like to remind chris that larc's original question was:
[quote]Who was God's spokesman from Adam to Noah? ...from Noah to Abraham? From the destruction of Jerusalem in 587 BC until Christ? From the death of the early Christians until Charles Taze Russell? [emphasis mine]
I believe his intention was to point out to you that the persons mentioned above were INDIVIDUALS whom God used to accomplish his purpose, and also that in the intervening years God needed nobody nor any formal organization in order for his will to be done.
You may want to check out the date for the fall of Jerusalem -- if you do an internet search you will find out what the Israeli National Tourist Office says about this, as well as several Encylcopedias -- and you may ask yourself who was the Faithful and Discreet Slave just before CT Russell (Storrs/etc) popped onto the scene in the late 1800's?
It would probably be a good thing for Knight to look into as well.
Thanks for atopping by.
Hang around. There is plenty room for all of us.
One quick question. In your answer to Prisca, you stated, "only one came on a bit strong" May I ask, which servant was it?
P.S. I have to agree with ThinkersWife on the item of holy spirit. Allow me to add a thought.
If you remember, back when the elder arrangment was intalled, the elders and ministerial servants were not judged based on holy spirit but it was how their fellow servants and congregation members view them as to whether they were appointed or not. It was just like it was when the people of Boaz town appointed him as an elder at the gate. It was NOT Boaz or holy spirit, it was his reverental behavior. You probably have read it a million times, but for those who haven't, it is at Ruth chapter 4.
I read some of your posts and if I misunderstand your points please correct me.
“The prophets guided the nation til Christ. Before the death of the last apostle, it was made clear that Christianity would be facing tough times ahead.”
Chris this was made clear when Jesus was here ,not after the death of the last apostle.
“Apostasy set in for a long time. But champions of Bible truth are still there, those who are willing to stake their own lives for the Bible. Efforts were made to silence the Bible but failed because of God's backing. This brings us to our modern time when CT Russell initiated a serious step back to Christianity as taught by Jesus himself.”
Chris you cant just dismiss 1700 years as .......this brings us to ...it seems to be longer than the actual movement itself.
Apsotasy did not set in. What set in were people, that just like today, here and now..... willing to fight against any thing organized in GODS name that is unfair , or ungodly.
“Jesus was God's spokesman who organized his apostles & later on disciples. After his death, this organization carried on in the work he gave them. Jesus himself set the precedent.”
Spokesman...excuse me....I have heard him referred to as many things but SPOKESMAN, give me a break........he set a precedent in showin people that the organization the jews had in place was corrupt and unnecessary to approach his father. He never encoraged ORGANIZATION he encouraged telling people about his father. The “one faith” spoken of by Paul, is faith in him and in his sacrifice.
“The proof is there of Jehovah's blessings for the congregations flourished. “
Really flourished?........why then did Paul write the letters to the Corinthians about not falling back to ol“#7Åactices. His other letters are also filled with EXHORTATIONS to stop idoaltry and other forms of worship.
“Just a thought. Here's some real life situations: denial of Jesus by Peter on the night of his trial; constant argument of the apostles as to who is greatest among them despite corrections by Jesus; “
Yes Chris this was prior to THEM RECEIVING HOLY SPIRIT or are you not familiar with that in Acts.
“With being appointed by holy spirit, a privilege, comes a huge responsibility to use that wisely. Privilege given by Jah equals accountability to Jehovah. Be assured He will act in his time.”
Please tell me you are not saying that elders and ministerial servants are appointed by “holy Spirit” .......next I will hear God is the editor of the Watchtower , Jesus Is driecting the FDS and the GB are like the apostles spirit annoited..
Sorry chris... I am showing restraint , since I want you to feel welcome....
BUT under no circumstances do I agree with you!