The Trinity

by meadow77 740 Replies latest watchtower beliefs

• 

  Reborn2002

  Excellent points DakotaRed.

  Although I personally do not believe in God at all, it is easily seen that the trinitarians posting on this thread pick and choose what Scriptures to heed or acknowledge and ignore the others which do not support their agenda.

  This course of behavior is no different than that of the Jehovah's Witnesses.

  I notice up to this point none of them have chosen to address your post containing 65 verifiable examples found in Scripture to demonstrate that Jesus and God would be separate, and not equal.

  How ironic. I am not surprised.

  The Bible is a book of ongoing contradictions, a fairy tale for the weak-minded to believe in order to sleep securely at night possessing some kind of hope. That is my belief anyhow.

  If imperfect man can write novels which are coherent, why does an Almighty omnipotent and omniscient being who allegedly inspired others to write for Him have such difficulty composing a coherent book.. especially considering it is supposed to be the instruction manual for his creation to follow?

  LOL

  edited to add: If you read the post directly below this one, you will see my point being made for me. SwedishChef supports the idea of a trinity and completely ignores the 65 scriptures DakotaRed presented which refute the idea of a trinity, and goes on to spout more text which only supports his idea. It is a never-ending clash of ideals that does not stop. Is one Bible passage more important than another? Religion is such a joke. Sometimes I cannot fathom that people still believe this stuff. Anyway, continue arguing people. No one will be proven right or wrong, after all.. nothing spiritual is able to be proven right? All you have is based on faith. After all, what is faith?

  http://dictionary.reference.com/search?q=faith

  faith ( P ) Pronunciation Key (f
  n.

  1. Confident belief in the truth, value, or trustworthiness of a person, idea, or thing.
  2. Belief that does not rest on logical proof or material evidence. See Synonyms at belief. See Synonyms at trust.
  3. Loyalty to aperson orthing; allegiance: keeping faith with one's supporters.
  4. often FaithChristianity. The theological virtue defined as secure belief in God and a trusting acceptance of God's will.
  5. The body of dogma of a religion: the Muslim faith.
  6. A set of principles or beliefs.

  Yep, You gotta be trusting to have faith. You choose to live life life based on something you cannot prove or see.

  Tell a person to believe in another man who says amazing things and makes unbelievable promises with no logical proof or evidence, and it very seldom happens.

  Tell a person to believe in an invisible being who sees all things and created all things and performs miracles in a book of stories (Bible) that allegedly happened thousands of years ago which have never occurred again since the book was written, and people come running and blindly follow.

  Talk about being swindled.

  LOL

  Edited by - Reborn2002 on 27 November 2002 15:52:37
• 

  SwedishChef

  Dakota Red, I find you list of arguments against the Trinity pretty weak. I find the Trinity very evident in the Bible. Try reading some of my posts in which I identify this.
  I find very unscholarly to just blow off all my points.
  Your reference in Colossians is one I explained. If you would read the rest of that passage to get it in CONTEXT, you would see that your misinterpretting it.

  Colossians 1:14 In whom we have redemption through his blood, even the forgiveness of sins:
  (CF. Mark 2:7 "Why doth this man thus speak blasphemies? who can forgive sins but GOD ONLY?"; Acts 20:28 "Take heed therefore unto yourselves, and to all the flock, over the which the Holy Ghost hath made you overseers, to feed the church of GOD, which he hath purchased with his OWN blood.")
  Colossians 1:15 Who is the image of the invisible God, the firstborn of every creature:
  Now it says that Jesus is the image of God. Remember Jesus says " he that hath seen me hath seen the Father." The Bible also states that Jesus is equal with God. (John 5:18, Philippians 2:6)
  Being "firstborn of every creature" is speaking of Jesus' incorruptible resurrection. 1 Corinthians 15:19,20 mirrors this passage in Colossians.
  "If in this life only we have hope in Christ, we are of all men most miserable. But now is Christ risen from the dead, and become the firstfruits of them that slept."

  Colossians 1:16 For by him were all things created, that are in heaven, and that are in earth, visible and invisible, whether they be thrones, or dominions, or principalities, or powers: all things were created by him, and for him:
  17 And he is before all things, and by him all things consist.
  18 And he is the head of the body, the church: who is the beginning, the firstborn from the dead; that in all things he might have the preeminence.
  19 For it pleased the Father that in him should all fulness dwell;

  This passage goes on to says that Jesus created EVERYTHING, and that He is before ALL things.

  Advice: READ IN CONTEXT!
• 

  DakotaRed

  Please explain the context of Jesus calling God the ONLY true God at John 17:3.

  Never mind all the rest for right now, just explain how Jesus can be God, yet call another the only true God!

  Sorry you find Jesus' own words so weak. I place more stock in what he said than translators who wish to place a non-existant theory stolen from Platoism into it.

  Lew W
• 

  SwedishChef

  Dakota...To answer this question you ask me to understand the divine mind of God. I can only answer what the Scriptures explain, and that is that Jesus is God.
  Isaiah 44:6-7 "Thus saith the Lord the King of Israel, and his redeemer the Lord of hosts; I am the first, and I am the last; and beside me there is no God. And many nations shall be joined to the Lord in that day, and shall be my people: and I will dwell in the midst of thee, and thou shalt know that the Lord of hosts hath sent me unto thee."
  This passage is, of course, a prophecy about the coming Messiah Jesus Christ. Notice that the Lord (Jehovah) and the redeemer, the Lord (Jevovah), speak as one. For they are the same person. The last sentence can address John 17:3. The Lord (Jehovah) SENDS the Lord (Jevovah) to dwell among His people.
  I believe that is enough explanation.
• 

  JosephMalik

  Never mind all the rest for right now, just explain how Jesus can be God, yet call another the only true God!

  Dakota Red,

  Easy. Anyone in authority can be called God. The term identifies no one specifically but simply identifies persons in authority such as Moses, David, the Kings of Israel and it's Prophets. You will find all such persons called God in scripture. However when the term is used regarding them it is not used in the context of Supreme Being or true God. This has always been true and our Lord used this fact in His behalf when the Jews who misunderstood His words and though that He was making Himself God tried to stone him.

  33 The Jews answered him, saying, For a good work we stone thee not; but for blasphemy; and because that thou, being a man, makest thyself God. 34 Jesus answered them, Is it not written in your law, I said, Ye are gods? 35 If he called them gods, unto whom the word of God came, and the scripture cannot be broken; 36 Say ye of him, whom the Father hath sanctified, and sent into the world, Thou blasphemest; because I said, I am the Son of God?

  The Jews were wrong but even so Jesus was their creator and can properly be called God to all mankind for such reasons. The scriptural examples used demonstrated such use of this term to them therefore they had no basis for stoning Him.

  Joseph
• 

  SwedishChef

  Joseph, that is the most Biblically unbased thing I've heard today.
• 

  William Penwell

  More on the history of the council of Nicea:

  In 325 C.E., Constantine summoned the leaders of the church to Nicea, a suburb of Constantinople (modern Istanbul), to adjudicate controversies among warring factions in the ecclesiastical world. He presided at that council himself, although not yet a Christian. The first form of the Nicene Creed (it was later expanded), which contained the formulations of that council, was intended to unify the various parties. Constantine saw to it that the vote was unanimous by banishing the bishops who did not put their signatures to the creed. There was now an official statement of correct beliefs, an orthodoxy, to which everyone had to subscribe. Those who did not became "heretics" dissenting parties.

  Will

  Edited by - william penwell on 27 November 2002 16:46:4
• 

  JosephMalik

  SwedishChef,

  Nonesense. There are many examples of this and you for one can not refute any of them. Trinitarians do not want you to know such things but does that make them wrong or scripturally unbased? The Trinity doctrine is not truth and is not taught in scripture. It is that simple.

  See Beyond Trinitarianism at: http://localsonly.wilmington.net/jjmalik/

  Joseph

  Edited by - JosephMalik on 27 November 2002 17:35:38
• 

  SwedishChef

  Joseph, mighty big words. I noticed you didn't bother refute anything I've posted -- no one has! You can talk all you want, but It doesn't mean anything if it's not backed up by Scripture. You can't refute what the Bible plainly says. Simple.
• 

  SwedishChef

  It figures, there is no JW that can refute my posts. You know why? Because all the Scripture used to back up the Deity of Christ is well translated (I shouldn't even have to mention that), and in context.
  You can deny Scripture, but you can't refute Scripture. It says what it says.
  Here's some advice for any Jehovah's [false] Witnesses: turn your back on the Watchtower and place your trust on the Word of God and what it has to say about the Lord Jesus Christ.
  You know if the Watchtower didn't exist, and you only had the Bible, your views would be completely different; because there is no way you can read the Bible and walk away with JW beliefs.
  The founder of this cult, Taz Russell, was quoted as saying something like this: If you stick only with the Bible, your bound to err; you must keep my teachings and doctrines. (This is just a paraphrase)
  Does this sound like a man who loves God? No! Old Taz was a false prophet. He was only out for money and fame. It is so obvious it's sickening.
  The bogus statements the Watchtower comes off with is sickening too. "Jesus was not physically resurrected"; and "Jesus died on a stake not a cross". These teachings are so easily proven false! Just read the account of Jesus' crucifixion and resurrection in the four Gospels!
  It makes me sad that people actually fall for it. I also know that many don't just "fall for it"; they are willingly ignorant.