The Real Truth About Raymond V. Franz Revealed! (page 6)

larc

expatbrit, I think you should start a new thread about the apostle Paul, and how he was no damned good. He persecuted the Christians before his miraculous conversion. So, what he did can never be forgiven. I light of this analogy, I see no point in your comments about what Ray wrote, before he wrote his two books.

pettygrudger

I find it strange that these Bill vs. Ray threads continue to crop up. Haven't both Bill & Ray given their opinions of this situation?

Ray never said he was a saint - what do certain of you people want? Does he owe any of us an apology? If he did, hasn't he paid his debt to "us" with the 2 books he wrote to set the records straight? What more could you possibly want from the man? Blood? What could he do to make it anymore right than he already has? Do you know Carl well enough to say that perhaps that situation wasn't made "right" by Ray either? Do you know for a fact whether he did apologize to this man if IN FACT he DID have anything to do with his situation (if you read Carl's account - Rays name NEVER comes up).

OH yea - ditto Qwerty - except i say leave them both alone (Ray & Bill). The arguments have been gone over & over again, and neither of the 2 particulars are even interested any longer. let it go....its doing nothing, proving nothing & getting noone anywhere.

bjc2012

To all:

I appreciate your candor.

But its time for a reality check.

Some have commented in this thread to the effect,

"don't you know about the 2/3 rule on the Governing Body", and "that's how things are done by them", and so on.

Well, with respect to the 1978 barbequing, and subsequent crucifying of COJ, RV Franz was a very powerful figure at Bethel, during those years. A very, very powerful figure on the G.B. Let me give some of you, especially those who are "new" in the truth, loosely speaking, some background information to go on.

But I do acknowledge, true in more recent years, the Governing Body has employed this "2/3 rule" to establish "present truth", as they call it. But those who know the "inner-workings" of the G.B. know there is much more to the story.

When we go back in time and go back to the actual conception of the "Aid book", the beginning of this false chronology "problem" situation, we don't have such a circumstance existing as many are describing. Let's explore that a bit.

The following information is taken from:

"Crisis of Conscience" pages 21, 22 under chapter "Credentials and Cause" (1983 edition).

Actually when President N. Knorr appointed RV Franz to head up the team to put the "Aid book" together, the only "2/3 rule" in effect at that time, was Knorr himself. Knorr was the "rule" in place. And what he said, his word, was the final word too.

Now back then, he gave RV Franz specific instructions on how he wanted the "Aid book" handled. RV Franz wrote the following on the situation he faced before being a member of the Governing Body,

"Near the start, President Knorr made a statement that proved a key factor in our approach to the project. It was not intended the way we understood it but that undoubtedly was fortuitous. Talking to those of us then assigned, he said, "We just want to present what the Bible says; there is no need to look up everything in the Society's publications."

"His intent in saying this, as we realized later, was so that the project could get done quickly and so it would produce something relatively small, a "handbook" as he later expressed it. By just restating what in the particular Bible verses relating to a subject, with very little additional clarification, there would be only a minimal amount of time needed for research. We misunderstood him to mean that we should strive always to present what the Bible actually said rather than feel obliged to present things the way the Watchtower publications presented them. A considerably different kind of publication resulted than would otherwise have been the case. The material sent in by the 250 men almost without exception presented information according to the "accepted viewpoint" of the Society's publications. Our research often revealed differences."

Therefore, since Nathan Knorr was the "boss", totally in charge, and it was "his instructions" to make the "Aid book" show only "what the Bible actually says", why not approach him with your disturbing "findings" on 607 chronology? Let Knorr make the decision? But RV Franz didn't do this. Why?

The revelation of such a "find" could have jeapodized his future "promotions" for himself. You see, after he finished the "Aid Book", RV Franz was appointed to be a member of the Governing Body. In 1971.

But there is more.

A direct comment from Fred Franz (Vice Pres. and second in command behind Pres. Knorr) back during those years when the "Aid Book" was being put together, in the beginning. Remember, Fred Franz at that time was the "mainstay" of the Writing Dept. at that time, and had been so for many years. He specifically said to RV Franz while compiling the "Aid book",

"Don't try to understand the Scriptures on the basis of what you see today in the organization," he said, and added, "KEEP THE AID BOOK PURE." -- See "Crisis of Conscience" pages 21, 22 under chapter "Credentials and Cause" (1983 edition).

What?

Fred Franz said to Raymond Franz, "Don't try to understand the Scriptures on the basis of what you see today in the organization...just keep the "Aid book" PURE?

So why did not RV Franz just do that?

He had received "instructions" from the President and the Vice President to "keep the Aid book pure," had he not? Knorr told him not to "try to understand the Scriptures on the basis on what you today in the organization", did he not?

So if the President and Vice President told you to the above, you mean you are going to write some PHONE CHRONOLOGY in the "Aid Book" anyway? And do that without any DIALOGUE with them on your unique "findings".

But, that's what RV Franz did, my dear friends.

So we are left to conclude that RV Franz is shy, non vocal brother, a humble brother that just "knows his place", right?

Wrong!

After getting on the Governing Body in 1971, RV Franz's powerful presence was deeply felt. In fact, RV Franz was so powerful, this very possibly could have been the thing that caused his fall from grace, and became his "undoing".

RV Franz was so vociferous, so out spoken that "crammed down the throats" the elder arrangement, and its resulting effects upon the power structure of Nathan Knorr and Fred Franz, the most powerful duo of men in WTS history! During those years, those two men were quite powerful, quite powerful. They WERE the JW Organization, and they always STOOD TOGETHER.

But what discredited them, was their PUSHING of 1975. And RV Franz used this to their particular "undoing", in the end. Don't believe, I say, read the book.

Listen, its obvious to me, you people don't even know the extent of effort RV Franz put in toppling the "ELDER HIERARCHARY" of the Presidency and Vice Presidency, as well as in each and every congregation of JWs worldwide, since the years of 1971-1975, do you? For your information, it was RV Franz and his powerful research derived from the "Aid book" that gave the "elder arrangement" of 1971 its birth, its power -- in all congregations of JWs! Also, 4 years later, it was the "research" from the "Aid book", that actually REMOVED Brother Knorr and Brother Fred Franz FROM POWER, ALTOGETHER -- in December 1975!

RV Franz did this! And nobody else on the Governing Body did this. The "elder arrangement" was Ray's "baby", people. I think some of ya'll need to "tighten up", really.

RV Franz did this! It was his newly installed, potent "presence" on the Governing Body that swayed everybody eventually, except Knorr and Franz to do as Sec/Tres. Grant Suiter said in one morning's meeting:

"...well if we are the "governing body", then let's start Governing!"

My friends, RV Franz's research is what gave conception, and totally EMPOWERED the Governing Body arrangement, don't you remember?

His "findings", his "research" since the early years while they worked on the "Aid Book" did all of this. RV Franz, utilizing there "errors" on 1975, actually put Pres. Knorr and V. Pres. Franz "OUT OF BUSINESS", completely and totally.

By his research on "elders/overseers", RV Franz totally alienated his uncle from him because Ray had for all practical purposes, STRIPPED him of his lofty "power" as Vice President of the WTS. For a while, some 4 years, Knorr and Franz fought bitter RV Franz on his disturbing "findings" of the "Aid book" on the power of the Presidency and Vice Presidency. The true scripturalness of the "Governing Body" and why that particular "body of men" should be empowered, as opposed to following the likes of Knorr and Franz.

RV Franz showed they scripturally didn't have to follow those men anymore! RV Franz stood up for what he called "principle" during those and days and toppled the President and Vice President, and effectively reduced their "influence" on that Central Body of Elders that was to mimic the first century apostle's set up, of a first century Governing Body. Fred Franz desperately tried to counter RV Franz's findings in a Gilead speech actually contradicting RV Franz and the "Aid Book" by while addressing the 59th Gilead Graduation class. Fred Franz in desperation attacked RV Franz.

It was in 1975, in a talk given to the 1975 Gilead Graduation Class, where the Vice President of the WTS, using Acts 15th chapter showed there was no such "ecclesiatical body" nor any "apostolic body at Jerusalem" that first century "evangelizers" like Paul or Phillip received "assignments from". He said, they "did their work" exclusively under the direction of Jesus Christ, and him only. So, these "missionaries" that he was speaking to then, mustn't think they are getting their "assignments" any such group on earth today. -- See Watchtower 1975 page 672.

RV Franz mentions this incident in his first book. And in his book, he shows this was greatly disturbing to himself and those who knew what Fred was doing. According to RV Franz, Fred Franz was openly CONTRADICTING the "Aid book", as well a powerful article written in the December 15, 1971 WT magazine article entitled "A Governing Body as Different From a Legal Corporation". Let's remember, at that time President Knorr and Vice President Fred Franz represented the "Legal Corporation", respectively as its leading and most powerful officers. As President and Vice President, respectively. And in this particular article, it specifically speaks of a "Central Body of Elders" that gave directions to the preaching work in the first century, and that Paul and other preachers of the word, definitely, without question, got their instructions from that "Central Body of Elders" at Jerusalem.

I wonder, how many of you remember that article? How many of you who are complaining against this "little old lady's" comments, were JWs back in December 1971 -- 32 years ago?

How many of you were back there to feel, the tremendous IMPACT of such a doctrinal change, that RV Franz pioneered, by his work on the "Aid book". I'm here to tell you, that "teaching" shook up the entire JW Organization! The "elder arrangement" was talked about for years, as one of the greatest "finds" of our visible organization in recent years.

But this "elder arrangement" was not easy to implement, especially since from its conception, it attacked the power base of the WTS organization. The RV Franz "teaching" tested the strength of the duo of Knorr/Franz and powerful hold on the organization, put to that point. These two men who had been in power since 1942 and 1945 respectively. The two who "ran" this organization.

I'm here to tell you, RV Franz stood up to them. Why? To empower the "Governing body", of which he was a large, vislble part.

Remember, it was RV Franz's Aid Book "research", combined with the debacle of 1975, that successfully topped the "Dynamic Duo" of Knorr and Franz. But it was a tremendous 4 year struggle, from 1971-1975.

And after that tremendous "change over" of power, largely due to RV Franz' efforts, RV Franz entered his "heyday", people. And, it was during this time, that he started to develop problems. He notes, he faced "jealous" and envy from his "peers" on the newly empowered Governing Body. So much so, that he began to "hold his tongue" in G.B. meetings. He stopped speaking his opinion, during those difficult years for him.

Old timers, do you remember, when we used to say,

"washing our cars was SACRED SERVICE TO GOD", remember that?

It was 1976-77. I remember it so well.

Well, where do you think that idea came from? I'll give you one guess. RV Franz of the G.B.

How about this one:

"you can REPROVE YOURSELF" "Don't tell the elders when you fornicate, just reprove yourself".

Remember that?

1976 teaching, from guess who? RV Franz.

How about this one,

"Don't forget to SPEAK to Disfellowshiped people?

1974. RV Franz people.

Ya'll need to remember. I was there.

Most of this information I quoted above is vividly shown in RV Franz's first book.

RV Franz, by his "research" created a "rift" like one never seen before, in the Governing Body of JWs. He "introduced" CONTROVERSIAL information that totally humiliated and alienated Nathan Homer Knorr from himself. Did the same to his uncle, Fred Franz and "cut them down to size", by his "research". Then too, RV Franz further humiliated both men, over the "boo-boo" of their unique making of the 1975 doctrine! All of this discredited these two men. And RV Franz was right there, politely "trampling them in the dirt". RV Franz, as they say, "took care of business" or "TCB" people.

I remember so vividly, a talk R V Franz gave on "The Date of 1975", in the fall of of that year, showing no one in his right mind would believe "Adam named all the animals in quick succession...like God having all the animals run past Adam and Adam just says, "Cow, Bear, Wolf..." RV Franz pointed out then, that Adam needed much more time to study the animals, and find appropriate "names" for each of them. And that would take "much time", he said. I was there, and I heard the talk. But those at Bethel, those in the know, realized the serious implications. His was chiding the brothers MOST responsible for this "teaching". He was chiding Brother Knorr and F. Franz, in whom he PUBLICLY made to look like "jerks". RV Franz did this. RV Franz had "come into power", my friends. By late 1975.

So you people who criticize me, really don't have the facts. I was back there. I lived the "era". (No, I never was a Bethel family member.) I'm only a 50-year baptized veteran of the WTS. And was in the JW organization, before that too, as a child. I attended the 1958 International Assembly in NY, a historic meeting where a quarter of a million were assembled in Yankee Stadium and the Polo grounds. I lived and experienced the effects of the "era" of RV Franz, and before him during Knorr/F. Franz, so I know the difference and the effects of both "administrations" upon JWs.

Remember, RV Franz was a very powerful man, even at his start in 1971. So, he was no one to "push around" at Bethel. He held his own against the strongest of them all, while on that body we call the G.B. His "research" in the end, effectively topped the 2 most powerful men in recent years at Bethel, Nathan Knorr & Fred Franz. The true "policy-makers" of their time for the JW Organization.

Now, I ask, if RV Franz could do all of this described above, what those comments about "keeping the Aid Book...PURE", that his uncle specifically told to do? And about what President Knorr told him to do when he wrote the "chronology" part in the "Aid Book" namely, "...just present what the Bible says," and that all.

So, why didn't RV Franz do as he was SPECIFICALLY TOLD, I ask you?

So people, do your homework, please.

bjc

Edited by - bjc2012 on 27 October 2002 19:10:3

pettygrudger

What exactly is your point BC? To prove this man isn't a saint? Okay - didn't see anyone here calling him one. So, what more is there to be gained from this? The man admitted he was involved in things for which he is ashamed - so you're once again "beating a dead horse".

It sounds as if you feel particularly maligned by this person - so perhaps you should work this out with him privately. I believe Ray's already paid his debt to society, and has also set the record straight. WHAT MORE DO YOU WANT?!!!

expatbrit

Larc:

I think you should start a new thread about the apostle Paul, and how he was no damned good. He persecuted the Christians before his miraculous conversion. So, what he did can never be forgiven.

I think that's an excellent idea. Except that I would invert the periods of when he was no damned good. It's what he did after his conversion that can never be forgiven.

Forgive and forget is a recipe for repetition.

Expatbrit

Pathofthorns

Interesting comments. Thanks

Path

DannyBear

Gumby,

I guess this self absorbed, full of himself, I knew some of the big name guy's, I know the real truth, your all a bunch of ignorant schmucks, bjc guy, did not hear your most salient advice. To bad. He keep's digging himself deeper into the hole.

Danny

gumby

DannyBear,

He keep's digging himself deeper into the hole.

Hey Dan'o,

These kind of guys never shut up. Regardless how much rebuttle from other posters who continually tell them they don't give a shit about Ray's prior departure years.....they will keep dragging up more shit. He obviously never wised up after leaving the dubs.

Some ex-ers are like ACID burnouts. Their minds are permanently scared beyond repair....and he's one of em.

Englishman

I quite like the idea of Ray Franz being a toughie with the dynamic duo!

Englishman.

kelsey007

I have never viewed either Mr Bowen or Mr Franz as heros or anything other than men. As for Mr Franzs book, as enlightening as it has been it has always been my opinion that it was written primarily because Mr Franz needed as income and given his insight gained due to postition in the WT it was only reasonable that he write such a tell all book. To view him as an apologist because he has conducted himself as a gentleman is as rediculice to me as saying that Mr Bowen is a martyer. To put either man in hero status is indeed a bad move. Mr Franz, being twice the age of MR Bowen, has persented his expose in a more non-emotional way. In so doing his books have helped many that may have never pcked up the books had they been written with a Bowen like tone.

This entire debate to me has been one -not of is Mr Bowen telling the truth or is Mr Franz telling the truth- it has been about the wrongness of Bowen and silent lambs supporters publicly throwing out accusations against individuals and quoting private conversations in a public forum. Reputations are easily damaged when men who have placed themselves in leadership capacities use a tounge unbridled. Much pain and emotion has been stirred due to unkind words and unwarrented accusations stated by Mr Bowen and some of his supporters. True or not- should not be the baromiter by which to decide to publicly quote from private conversations and throw out wild unprovable accusations that when publicly stated are bought into by many of the hearers as fact. Many things stated by Mr Bowen and some of his supporters have not brought any gain in aid of abuse victims and indeed undermine the stated goals of the movement. Mr Bowen has set the tone for nagative comments directed toward others. Having set that tone he must live with it for a while. SInce he has brought that tone to the movement he has turned many off and offended many who are in the recovery process from a WT life. Now that tone will be hard to change or correct. It takes years to build a good name and one minute to destroy it.

The Real Truth About Raymond V. Franz Revealed!

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