You Know,
What a PERFECT opportunity for you, a spinless weinie, that thrives on trouble to show yourself.
I see you haven't gotten a life YET! Are you going to remain a weinie your whole damn life?
The Real Truth About Raymond V. Franz Revealed!
by bjc2012 108 Replies latest jw friends
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pettygrudger
Gumby - I just wonder why You Know didn't bother making his October predictions this year - I see he has laid low - did he ever pay his debt last year?
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ballistic
I've only just read the post and my immediate thought is that it is critical of Ray for not being a super-hero. The fact is millions have left the organisation from various ranks within it, and not everyone of them is cut out as either an activist, or a writer, or so called "apostate". Some, like me leave in such a state of confusion, it could take that whole 2 years or more just to get your feet on the ground. How can people presume they know Rays circumstances? It was also insinuating that he built up a debt of guilt in the org which can somehow be paid by his works as an outsider, this I found particuallarly illogical and almost irrelevant anyway. Guilt has been held over all of us by the organisation over the years, it is repressive, negative and debilitating. That post was suggesting Ray should be feeling guilty for what he did in the organisation. I've got a feeling someone would not be happy unless they saw a literal cross and nails being hammered.
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ros
Hello all,
Forgive me if my comments have been covered by other posters in this thread, I've not had time to read them all.
I do not question the sincerity or desire to be objective by the person who started this thread, who in this thread calls him/herself bjc2012. However, I might question as Prisca did whether the person has actually read COJ's "Gentile Times Reconsidered" or Ray Franz' "Crisis of Conscience". The reason being that some of his/her questions are somewhat addressed therein.
First, in COJ's book, "Gentile Times Reconsidered", he publishes in the foreward of that book a letter of apology he received from Ray Franz. Does bjc2012 realize that Ray and COJ have become good friends? Ray actually formatted the second edition of COJ's book for publishing. As well, Ray explains (reveals) about COJ's research in "Crisis of Conscience", and Commentary Press promoted (promotes) COJ's books ("Gentile Times Reconsidered" AND "The Sign of the Last Days--When?" which is an extraordinary study of the so-called "composite sign").
Contrary to "You Knows" propaganda of a Ray Franz movement, it does not exist. People simply respect him for his confessions.
~Ros
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UnDisfellowshipped
larc said:
Undisfellowshipped, you are not saying that Ray lied, you just think it is hard to believe. In other words, it is hard to believe that he is not lieing. That is what your words mean. Now, regarding rape and screaming, the WT has changed their policy on this at least 12 times on this since the early 1960's. Which policy are you going to pin on Ray? Since a policy change requires a two thids vote, how do you know how Ray voted on this policy?
Very good point larc. I'm not trying to "pin" anything on Ray Franz. In my post, I did not say that I thought Ray had voted in favor of the Rape or Pedophile Policies, I simply stated that it seemed hard to believe that he had never voted on the Policies at all.
larc said:
Now, on the issue of child abuse, at least three of us have pointed out that before 1980, this kind of informatioin rarely got out of the home. It was a shame on the family that was not talked about. Do you understand this very important fact? With this in mind, it is most likely that the WT did not have a policy on child abuse before 1980. I was born in 1940, and I know what it was like before 1980. Several others that are of that era have a agreed with my observations.
Thank you for this information. I definitely now understand the whole situation better.
I want to clarify my position, and thank you for this info larc.
From what I have heard, Ray Franz has done an AWESOME WORK with his Books, and has helped set SO MANY PEOPLE FREE from the Watchtower Society, and has probably helped TONS OF PEOPLE find the True Jesus Christ of the Bible.
Please don't take my comments to mean that I am against Ray Franz. I just didn't have a full understanding of the Watchtower's Policies back then.
Now, with the info you gave you me on your post, it doesn't seem hard to believe at all that Ray Franz wouldn't have known about the Pedophile Policy (especially since they probably didn't even have a Written Policy back then).
I want to apologize to Ray and to this Board if my comments above were taken to mean that I was against Ray Franz.
Bill Bowen has also done an AWESOME WORK with his Website, and Media Coverage, and he has helped over 5,000 Abuse Victims, and has probably helped SO MANY PEOPLE to see the REAL TRUTH about the Watchtower Society.
I have a lot of Christian Love for Ray Franz and Bill Bowen.
Also, I don't hold it against Ray Franz for sticking with the Watchtower for a while, even after he started to realize it was all lies. I'm sure there are quite a few people who have done this.
I think he has more than made up for that.
I salute Ray Franz and Bill Bowen for all the work they have done to help the Victims of the Watchtower Society (Mentally, Physically, Spiritually, and Sexually Abused Victims).
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gsark
guess what else it says in COJ's excellent book, which I have here open in front of me;
(The Gentile Times Reconsidered, Softcover, page 1, 1998 edition, Carl Olaf Jonsson):
We are each responsible for what we know. If a person has information on hand that others need in order to get a correct understanding of their situation in life--information that furthermore is withheld from their religious leaders--then it would be morally wrong to remain silent. It becomes his or her duty to make that information available to all who may want to know the truth, however this may appear."
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deddaisy
Bill Bowen quit the org 13 months prior to being df'd. He walked away. This is stated in his words quoted in the New York times. I have always wondered why, after having willingly walked away that he would put up the pretense of a fight against being df'd
(emphasis added)
Mr. Bowen, I believe, even though stepping down as an elder, etc., did not wish to be disfellowshipped. Being a disfellowshipped Witness would create a barrier between him and some abuse victims. As we all know, those in good standing are to refrain from communicating with a disfellowshipped person.
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UnDisfellowshipped
Welcome to the Board COJ
deddaisy said:
Just as Mr. Bowen has not studied the chronology of the Bible and is therefore "not aware" of any problem with the WTS's chronology, does this mean that a problem does not exist? Just as you discovered error in the WTS's chronology of the Bible and took steps to reveal it, so Mr. Bowen found error in the WTS's handling of alleged molestation cases, and took steps to reveal it.
I bet Bill knows about most of the Lies and Falsehoods the Watchtower Teaches. I think Bill chooses to focus on Child Molestation, because that is an extremely important subject, and as far as I know, there were no other Organizations out there focused on helping JW molestation victims.
deddaisy said:
But again, in your reasoning you revert to you having "no evidence that the child abuse is more common among the Witneses than other organizations or community at large." And again, I will ask you, must the percentage of molestations be as great as, or greater, than in other organizations or general population before a faulty handling of molestation cases is addressed? As Mr. Bowen and others pointed out, the Watchtower Society is unlike other organizations, or the general community in its handling of molestation victims.
I agree, that makes no sense.
Why does it matter if the "Percentages" of Molesters are greater or smaller than other Religions?
ONE Molester is TOO MANY.
Also, the main problem is, how the Watchtower Leaders handle the Molesters.
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kelsey007
deddaisy said: "Mr. Bowen, I believe, even though stepping down as an elder, etc., did not wish to be disfellowshipped. Being a disfellowshipped Witness would create a barrier between him and some abuse victims. As we all know, those in good standing are to refrain from communicating with a disfellowshipped person."
Given MR Bowen's length of time in the org as well as his position of elder he should have well known that by just stopping meeting attendance he would loose status to aid anyone in the WT. He should also have known that making statements like "spank those bad boys" and calling the WT a "pediphile paradise" was certainly not going to win him favor with the org. The mere fact that you are not df'd does not mean that you have not been marked. Most here know what I am talking about. Mr Bowen lined himslef up for disfellowshipping. He was and is disgruntled over WT policy in regards to pediphiles. His actions, words and comments-especially after having removed himself as elder and stopping meeting attendance gave a loud indication that he no longer wanted to be part of the org. If he had wanted to aid and make himself available to "good standing" JW's he should have approached his campaign in a more subtle fashion.
