The Real Truth About Raymond V. Franz Revealed!

by bjc2012 108 Replies latest jw friends

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  JT

  he did it in as objective and unsensationalistic manner as possible

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  interesting point, in fact almost everyone i have spoken to about his books this is one thing that stands out, i guess most of us are so used to a TELL ALL BOOK doing just that

  telling all the little juicy dirt and rumors, one of the things i was told by someone close to ray was that early on ray had made a decision to only right about things he could DOCUMENT- and for the most part his book doesn't come over as some angry old man

  Now if I had wrote that book you would know i was a "Angry Pissed Off Black Man" smile

  but i thought that was a good move on his part- I don;t think i could have done it myself.

  I guess the bottom line is we are ALL OUT AND MOVING ON WITH OUR LIVES each at our own pace.
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  wednesday

  I am currently reading COC. On my own, wihtout ever reading it here, i came to the conclusion that Ray would have done anything to stay in the org. and not be DF. He had a cong. he was attending and if he could not be an elder he said he'd just pioneer. This is in 80-81. From what i read , he fought them tooth and nail to keep them from df him(an example i intend to follow). So it seems that even though he had discovered all the untruths about the org, he would have stayed f they had not forced his df. He had family , etc.

  Bill, presented to the org some startling things. They decided to df him. He fought. They fought. They won. He's now trying to help others in the org by bringing child molestation, rape and abuse to light so we can all look at how ugly it really is.

  So what is the problem? Both men would have probably stayed and tried reform from within if they had not been forced out. No one DA themselfs.

  also, perhaps it is a good legal move to write only about things u can document-otherwise he would have faced charges of slander and libel.

  Edited by - wednesday on 26 October 2002 14:26:48

  Edited by - wednesday on 26 October 2002 14:30:37
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  kelsey007

  wednesday Bill Bowen quit the org 13 months prior to being df'd. He walked away. This is stated in his words quoted in the New York times. I have always wondered why, after having willingly walked away that he would put up the pretense of a fight against being df'd. Big dif. Ray Franz did not walk away- Bill Bowen did.

  Please also kep in mind that Bowen made public claims of being a JW in good standing though he had left. No he never made an official statement of disassiciating himself he just quit. 13 prior to the congregation taking official action against him.

  Edited by - kelsey007 on 26 October 2002 14:30:18
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  Tinkerbell4125

  Kelsey007, I'm not saying that Ray should be knocking down doors for the SilentLambs, but he could have *verbally* said I support what you're doing. I'm not in a position personally to do a whole lot for Bill, but I can say *verbally* that it's a good thing that he's doing and I support the cause. It doesn't take a rocket scientist to see that what Bill is doing is right. And yes, he did put himself *out there*, but that doesn't mean that he hasn't made sacrifices and lost people that were once dear friends. Because he made that his choice, we should say, well whatever he get's, he deserves? Bill has stood up and taken a stand for those who have had no say for years. I don't see anyone else doing this! My own brothers who are elders stood by and did nothing while my ex-husband physically and verbally abused me. I know it's Ray's right to be apart of Silentlambs or not, but I don't see where the harm would have been if he had said, Bill, I agree with what you're doing, it's about GODDAMN time someone with some balls stood up and started taking a stand*.
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  kelsey007

  tinkerbell I never said that he got what he deserved. My point was and is that since he has put himself in the public media he should be careful about what he says in a public forum. He has, due to the position he has put himself in, hurt many recovering ex-jws by his use of abusive language in public places.

  As for Ray Franz not making such a statement of support that is his choice. He has not brought himself to this forum and has not tried to bring media attention to himself. Neither you nor I, I believe were privy to the private conversations between Mt Bowen and Mr Franz. Mr Bowen brought this private conversation to the publics attention in such a way that Mr Franz felt compelled to publicly defend his position. That should never have had to happen. Mr Bowen was wrong for having made the statements he did. He betrayed a trust- unless Mr Franz was arware of Mr Bowen intent to make the private conversation public.

  Edited by - kelsey007 on 26 October 2002 14:37:54
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  wednesday

  resiging as an elder does not make hin not in good standing. Only if he is accused and proven he has violated a WT law is he not in good standing.Ray for that matter stayed in good standing almost until his DF. he says he still had the option to pioneer.
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  kelsey007

  As a third generation now ex JW I can say that when someone stops attending meetings they are viewed as inactive and not considered in good standing.

  Infact wednsday when such a person stays away from the meetings for extended periods the are generally encouraged, if not required, to be studied with for a time before being allowed fully back into the flock. The brainwashing must be put in full force before they are trusted again.

  Edited by - kelsey007 on 26 October 2002 14:42:25
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  Perry

  Hi bjc,

  Wow! You certainly put a lot of effort in putting this together and your way of connecting the dots is certainly provocative and controversial.

  The walk down memory lane was nostalgic. I really like getting the historicity of events from different perspectives. No one is unbiased though. However, with enough viewpoints a fair degree of historical accuracy can be attained. I remember when Ray was booted and given $10,000.00. I remember the national news it created as well as his interview. I also remember the elder arrangement being implemented and the good ole boys from the local KH coming over to the house to get my Dad to be one of the elders too.

  You have brought forth many interesting points. I cannot form a judgement on many of your claims at this time. But, I can definitely appreciate your candor and effort in trying to get out what you consider to be the real history instead of a sanitized one. I also appreciated the direct and even harsh critisims leveled at your arguments.

  This kind of argueing goes on all the time among historians. It is really quite healthy to have heated discussion and rebuttals. Many here presented some holes in your arguments. I do feel some of your claims are frivilous But, many of your other points seem unchallenged at present. We'll see how they hold up over time. I was less impressed at the comments regarding your motives.

  Thanks for your perspective.
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  reubenfine

  I was a dub back then, too. So F****** what? What if I wasn't? I very rarely heard of Ray Franz at the time because we weren't to glorify people. I didn't know one thing about him (except he was FF's nephew) until I heard he was disfellowshipped. This is such a lame thread. bjc must be REALLY BORED to go to so much effort to slam Franz.
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  wednesday

  also being a 3rd generation jw(we say with such pride) i know that if an elder JUST resigns he is not put in that t catagorey. I agree if u stay away form meeting for an extended period of time-u are viewed as inactive-but the term in good standing refers more to your status as wheter u are df da marked or whatever. people have stayed away for illness and retained their good standing. I think to it depends on how your elder body views u. I ahve been inactive for years and NO has ever offfered to study with me. They have on an occassion or 2 tried to encourge me to come back to the meeting. I sort of said "when hell freezes over" in a nice way.It also depends who u are-if u weere very popular and and all well they will not mark u and knock themselfs out to try and get u back to kh. They will still invate u to gettogathers and treat u well. Especially if u weree an elder. the good ole boy system is alive and well.

  However, your point made-if bill walked away he could still be in good standig -if no accusation that they could prove were made.