The Real Truth About Raymond V. Franz Revealed!

by bjc2012 108 Replies latest jw friends

  • czarofmischief

    Children beaten raped and murdered? I don't know, gsark, how many? As Farkel once kindly pointed out to me, making an allegation without proof or even a good statistic to back it up results in a specious posting.

    Women disfellowshipped for being raped? Don't know. Again, gsark, how many?

    A bloody intraorganizational war? The deal of the century? I mean, if this unsubstantiated allegation you've made is true, it still doesn't equal Chamberlain giving away the Sudentland.

    Relax Gsark. Ease up on the hyperbole.


  • expatbrit

    I can't say I've ever really understood the Cult of Saint Raymond. It's not as if the guy left the Watchtower over a matter of principle. He was booted out after losing a doctrine-based power struggle. His books were written as apologia and to provide himself with post-Watchtower income. (Please don't bother with naive assertions that the books were written primarily to help people.)

    Now, in responding to quite understandable (though poorly handled) criticisms of his deafening silence on the Child Abuse situation, he disgorges verbal diarrhoea worthy of a Watchtower Question From Readers, waffling for pages where twenty lines would suffice. And the responses to both Mr. Franz and Mr. Jonsson highlight bemusing double standards.

    For instance, when the Watchtower Society defended itself by quoting a Doctor saying that people didn't know as much about child abuse 18 to 20 years ago, the were quite rightly excoriated for spouting nonsense. When Mr. Franz uses similar reasoning to justify his alleged lack of knowledge of abuse cases in his Watchtower career, there is a queue of posts nodding sagely with such jaw-dropping comments as "I think abuse is a lot more known about and understood now that it was 20 / 30 years ago ... this is what I understood him to be saying (and agree with)".

    Or, when the Watchtower asserts that it must follow the Bible rule of two-witnesses, it is quite rightly castigated for pharisaical stupidity. Yet that is what the Bible says, and as was demonstrated in the Boer case, nowhere is there a specific limitation in the Bible that this rule does not apply in child abuse cases. Quite simply, the Watchtower is indeed following the Bible. Yet Mr. Franz, who helped to promulgate this rule with his writings, attempts to foist upon us the old "I'm was only following the guidance of Jesus" ploy to justify his involvement in that doctrinal policy. If he's at fault, he tells us, why then so must be Jesus and God, who guided him. And everyone falls into line, and the next time the Watchtower uses the same reasoning, cue howls of outrage.

    Or, when Jehovah's Witnesses respond to the Child Abuse exposure with "why are you looking at us, it's no worse with us than anyone else" the quite correct response is "one paedophile is too many." Yet when Mr. Jonsson comments that he see no reason to become involved in a Swedish support group because there are no more paedophiles in the Watchtower than anywhere else, nary a dissenting voice is raised.

    Bemusing double standards. Perhaps I'll write a satire. Maybe I'll call it "The Silence of the Franz."

    Flame away acolytes.


  • TR

    Why, if Ray Franz was so involved in maligning COJ's name, didn't Ray apologize to COJ in one of his books? Could it be that there was no need to apologize, because Ray was not instrumental in defaming COJ's name? Why has COJ not publicly criticized Ray Franz, not even saying that he should have in the past?

    We, as former JWs, were ALL complicit at one time or another for furthering a bogus doctrine. Cognitive dissonance just might be a hard thing to get past.


  • Undecided

    I just look at the information, I don't care who wrote it as long as it is true, and many times I just have to decide if it's true from what I have experienced and read before. I guess we all are guessing on many matters of spirituality and decide from our life's course and what our heart and mind tells us. Who can say for sure what the truth is in this universe we live in, or I should have said who can prove what the truth is for sure?

    Ken P.

  • Farkel


    : I can't say I've ever really understood the Cult of Saint Raymond.

    With a stupid statement like that, you don't help the rest of your arguments at all. Ray is not a "leader" of any "Cult." He has offered nothing to his readers and friends but his experience, his opinions and his best wishes. He has no "followers" because he has never acted like a leader which must be followed. You can't argue that he is a "cult" leader because he exposed the WTS any more than you can argue that Kent or I or AlanF or anyone else is a "cult" leader because we've done the same. Ray seeks no followers and neither do we. You cannot have a "cult" without a "cult" leader and I dare you to show a shred of evidence that Ray is "leading" anyone to do anything he wants them to do that would have them follow him and what he personally believes or wants others to believe.

    : When Mr. Franz uses similar reasoning to justify his alleged lack of knowledge of abuse cases in his Watchtower career, there is a queue of posts nodding sagely with such jaw-dropping comments as "I think abuse is a lot more known about and understood now that it was 20 / 30 years ago ... this is what I understood him to be saying (and agree with)".

    I believe he said he never had any occassion to deal with child abuse cases while he was on the GB.

    If that is to be believed, then he didn't know enough about it to comment about it. If you know his books, he ONLY commented on what he knew and what he experienced while in the WTS. For him not to comment about what he says he doesn't know is perfectly consistent in keeping with what he has already done.

    If that is not to be believed, then Ray Franz is a shameless liar. Since NO one has found a single lie in either of his books, and since NO one is guilty until proven so in most civilized nations, then Ray Franz is so-far innocent of your innuendo. Unless you can PROVE that Ray Franz knew about and helped cover up the WTS's complicity in child-rape/abuse, I suggest you tone down your accusations or put them where the sun don't shine. And keep them there until you get sensible.



    Edited by - Farkel on 26 October 2002 0:3:55

  • larc

    ExPatBrit, I think you are wrong on a couple of points. You say that it is wrong to say that not much was known about pedophilia back thirty years ago. I don't know how old you are. I am 61. From my earliest memory until 1980, a period of 35 years, I only heard of one case, and that was a rumor I heard in high school. No, it was not common knowledge back then. People did not talk about such things. I also think you are wrong to say that Ray wrote his book primarily to make money. He probably would have made more money working for Peter Gregorson. His books have a very small market niche, and the volumes he sells do not produce that much money. That is true of about 90% of the books that are written. If you think it is so easy and a road to wealth, then why don't you write a book?

  • MegaDude

    Anybody, including Ray Franz, could have seen the writing on the wall and decided to play corporate politics with the rest of the Gov. Body or stand for his principles. He chose not to play along. He ended up getting the boot. He could have kept his mouth shut like Lymon Swingle and many others in the Watchtower heirarchy who don't believe half the crock of crap they print, but he didn't.

    In the video "Witnesses of Jehovah" Ray Franz says that he was a part of things that, thinking back now, he is ashamed he was a part of them. That's good enough of an apology for me.

    Coming out of the JWs is not an overnight experience for most. How long did it take you? What did you lose? Ray was set for life if he just played along with the rest of the GB. He chose not to. I admire him for that.

    Did Ray Franz play a part in events that ended up causing me misery? Yes, he did. But he has made himself unselfishly available to those who seek his help. And I was one of them. The spirit of the man is kind, giving and sincere.

    If this keeps up, I can guarantee you one thing absolutely. The one who will suffer most will be Bill Bowen and his reputation. Not Ray Franz. It is becoming more clear that Bill Bowen is not competent to be running a group like Silent Lambs. If Bowen was smart, he'd tell his disciples to cool it. If Bill Bowen really is competent to run Silent Lambs, then he ought to tell his well-meaning mud slinging supporters they aren't helping him by ranting about Ray Franz.

    I'm sure the Watchtower is quite pleased. Thanks Bill.

  • DannyBear


    I think you summed it up very nicely. Thank you.


  • Janitor

    I have been greatly helped by Ray's books but I often wondered why he is protecting the GB. He made a comment like this in one of his books: "They are just innocent victims of their own lies" (Something like this. Not exact quotation.)

    It looks to me that Ray only gives us partial truths and I don't know what motivated him to write his books. To protect his image or get out of hard financial times? We may never know it.

    Ray! If you please read this board help us to show the world that the Watchtower is an evil manipulating mind control cult. I understand why you don't want to openly attack the Watchtower. You must be in a better position than most of us here to know how to reveal the true face of the Watchtower Corporation.

    You can create an account here and give us ideas on how to do it. You can do it anonymously. You never have to reveal to anybody that you post under a certain user name! Just give us clues and brave men like Bill Bowen will do it.

    Remember this. Showing partial truths and hiding some facts is dishonest! I am not a Christian but if I am correct you are. It is your obligation to show the truth. THE WHOLE TRUTH.

    Thank you for the books you wrote. Can you write more? Ask your Watchtower secretary Frank Toth to help you. He is out of the Watchtower too and starving somewhere in Canada.


    Edited by - Janitor on 26 October 2002 0:51:2

  • Valis
    Whereas, when we look back in the past, we must admit, COJ and Bill Bowens were a part of the "solution" to the problem.

    really? How long has little Billy B been out of the org and please answer this it not the position of BB that if is weren't for the SL issue he would still be a good little dubbie Elder? Please Bill or your cronie...answer this question. It reveals a lot about character and intent. What souliton ar you referring to BTW?


    District Overbeer of the "Tired of the Bullshit" class

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