Bill Bowen's attack on Ray Franz

by COJ 113 Replies latest watchtower child-abuse

  • JT
    JT

    As I read thru all these post over the last few days on bill and ray and now carl, i was thinking if i was still in the Org i would be laughing my A$$ off.

    i can't think of nothing as silly as watching folks who are all DF/DA or Drift Aways arguing over who can Piss on WT the Most.

    Bill, Ray and Carl all have s-77 cards in Brooklyn or Sweden's branch office in the service dept

    So could someone please tell me what is the point

    I see three men who all got the Hell out of Dodge and are moving on with their lives and "supporters" of each all proclaiming "My man can Pi$$ further than your man"

    now that is funny

    or should i say SO SAD

  • IslandWoman
    IslandWoman

    JT,

    So could someone please tell me what is the point

    If you have really read through all the posts, including Path's, Wasa's, J2lws, Amazing's, Gedanken's and others and you still do not understand what the point of all this is, then ............

    IW

  • JT
    JT
    So could someone please tell me what is the point

    If you have really read through all the posts, including Path's, Wasa's, J2lws, Amazing's, Gedanken's and others and you still do not understand what the point of all this is, then ............

    ############

    yes i read all the post and my question was really more of a " Rhetorical" question

    at this point it is like folks arguing over whose "ICE" is colder in my view

  • waiting
    waiting

    Ahhhhhhh, but look at all the interest - pro & con - this little comment generated!

    Remember the old quote from a movie star: "I don't care what they say about me as long as they spell my name right."

  • IslandWoman
    IslandWoman

    JT,

    at this point it is like folks arguing over whose "ICE" is colder in my view

    In my view, it's about getting away from the Watchtower mentality of throwing stones at people who disagree: "our way or the highway", "if you don't join me you're against me".

    Ray Franz has not made us feel this way, but Bill Bowen has tried to. That's the difference between them, imo.

    IW

  • gsark
    gsark
    I am honestly trying hard to stay open-minded and hear both views, but as it stands

    speaking of which when was the last time you spoke with Bill Bowen by phone?

  • DannyBear
    DannyBear

    I'am starting to laugh now. This is getting boring.

    Now we have someone comparing COJ and BB to the 'Christ' himself. Talk about idiotic, we are in a time warp or some mysterious decending 'black hole' of no return.

    Jesus, the guy must have spent hour's writing his treatise, all to champion his hero's. Well fella who ever you are, you can take your treatise and shove it where the sun...........

    The biggest piece of appologetic bullshit, Ive ever read. The very notion that one's exodus from the cult is more honorable than the next, smacks of a deeply ingrained overestimation of one's own self worth, or should I say self-righteousness! Get down off your 'christian' high horse, a muck around with the rest of us unwashed, unclean, son's of perdition, you pontificating jerk!

    If you can't see beyond the end of your big ruler of spiritual integrity. If you can't see that we are all recovering cultists, no matter our former station. If you can't understand why Ray Franz, could turn a blind eye toward some 'gentile times, revealed', then you never once in your 40yrs ever entertained a 'doubt'. Why is it so hard for you to imagine a GB member being any different from the average joe shmoe jw. Because you exalted them to positions, like you just did with COJ and BB. Get a clue.

    JT for sure the Bethel halls are reverberating with whisper's about this fiasco.

    Danny

  • Witch Child
    Witch Child

    to Island Woman;

    Here is a quote;

    "Many xJWs began to see that something was wrong years before they finally left. Yet they continued to participate in the JW religion, hoping that changes would come. You make some of the GB sound like reasonable men, and that is not easy to do."

    What you say is very true, as I know from my own case. I discovered that sexual abuse of children was happening in the JW congregation I attended. The mother of the child could not reveal to me who had molested her daughter because she had been threatened with disfellowshipping. she had also been prevented from going to the police. This troubled me greatly. Ii didn't know what to do about it... I had no one to expose as a molester, no knowledge of who the heck it was. Then a new family moved to our territory. They were "spiritually weak" and I was discouraged from spending time with them. But they were near neighbors and I thought perhaps I could be encouraging to them. It turned out they were "spiritually weak" because they were angry at the way their daughters molestation by a regular pioneer was handled. They had been put through the same trial as the other mom I knew!

    Was I horrified? YES! Did I have one iota of proof? no. Later, I heard even more cases of this.. I was heartsick. I knew in my heart that the JW religion was not the spiritual paradise it claimed to be... but I had not one name of an abuser. Still, I was a JW for over a year from that point. But... did I participate in the religion from that point on? Did I attend meetings? Go door to door? Witness informally? No. I backed away as much as I could (married to a JW at the time) and thought through the repercussions of leaving. I was so brainwashed that i equated leaving with dying, pathetic, huh?

    Well, even though I left knowing the rank and file were totally decieved about their wonderous org. I had no concrete proof, so I exposed nothing and no one. BJC's point is that Ray Franz was in a position to do a great deal more good than he chose to do. I like Ray Franz, i appreciate all he did and know he did the best he could at the time... it is hard to escape the wt! But BJC is right, Bill Bowen and COJ did more and stood up bravely to help others sooner facing tremendous consequences. They deserve our respect and support. If I was Ray Franz, I would have some regrets about not standing up sooner, not helping the decieved masses of jws while I had the most power to do so. If I was Bill Bowen or COJ, I would not have those regrets. I hope it is obvious that I respect and admire all 3 of these fine gentlemen.

    The increased responsibility to speak up goes to those with knowledge and proof, position and authority. Most of us had none of the above.

    Peace,
    Witch

  • COJ
    COJ

    The large and varied number of reactions to the few lines I posted surprised me, and it is, of course, impossible for me to respond adequately even to a handful of them. I find some of them particularly pertinent and informative.

    "Gedanken", in his judicious and balanced post of Oct. 25, 2002 at 13:03, shows he has correctly understood the meaning of my post. (Danke schn!) And "Amazing", in his enlightening post of Oct. 25, 2002, at 13:35, helpfully brought me up to date on this story by giving a detailed review of what had transpired before I butted into the discussion. Valuable information and comments were also provided by "IslandWoman", "Wasasister", and others. Thanks all of you!

    The most puzzling explanations are those posted by "bjc2012" on Oct. 25, 2002, at 16:19, in which he/she tries to cast the blame on Ray Franz for the way my case was handled by the Watch Tower Society and its representatives back in the 1970s, after I had sent my treatise to the headquarters in 1977. The story you tell, "bjc2012", is totally misleading and false. I have been corresponding regularly with Ray Franz during the past 20 years and feel I know quite well what happened. Here are some facts:

    My treatise on "The Gentile Times Reconsidered" was examined at the Writing Department by a number of brothers there. At that time about 18 writers were working at the department, and nearly one third of them more or less accepted the evidence presented in the treatise. One of them was Ray Franz, who was well acquainted with the subject, as he had done a lot of research on it himself and, as you say, had written the section on "Chronology" for the "Aid" book. He wasnt aware of the enormous burden of evidence against the 607 BCE date, however, until he read my treatise, so you cant blame him for what he wrote in defense of the date before 1977.

    As he realized that my conclusions were correct, how can you claim that he encouraged or participated in the widespread defamation of my name and character as a result of my research? This is completely illogical. During the correspondence I had with the headquarters and the Governing Body in the years 1977-1980, I received a number of letters, none of which was written or authored by Ray Franz. I know this, because I have a copy of the internal list from that time that explains the symbols used by the various authors and writers of letters.

    Ray, of course, was aware of the way the Society had decided to handle my case. But this policy was based an majority decisions, and it could not be changed by one man. Further, like myself, Ray was at that time in the process of reevaluating his whole belief system, so we were in a similar situation, mentally. As he also describes in detail in Crisis of Conscience, he brought up the subject of chronology at the Governing Bodys sessions, even copied a part of my treatise for each of the members. He tried to convince them that they needed to reconsider the whole subject, but met very little response. Instead, he soon got under fire himself, as we all know.

    I do not know why you are trying to throw suspicion on Ray Franz, his motives and actions, and why you are publishing your personal grudges against him here. You claim that you have presented "facts" about this matter, but I find none in your post. You speak of courage. Do you have the courage to step forward and tell us what is your real name and where you live, thus showing that you are prepared to take the responsibility for your statements and are prepared to present any evidence in support of them? Or do you prefer, as some others do, to use (misuse) your signature as an "ambush", from behind which you can attack those you dislike?

    I feel rather sure that none here believe your story.

    Carl Olof Jonsson

  • DannyBear
    DannyBear

    Carl,

    What? You mean you won't let this jerk immortalize you as some kind of 'christlike' hero.

    Well done. We now have THE REAL TRUTH....thank you very much!

    Danny

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