Bill Bowen's attack on Ray Franz

by COJ 113 Replies latest watchtower child-abuse

  • waiting
    waiting

    Naaaaaaaaaaa, bjc used to hang out with the guy who wrote The Report. At least that's what I think I remember. About 1.5 years ago around here. I think The Report cost about $30 and would answer "all our questions." A prophet of sorts.

    I think bjc is a woman, btw. There were 3 of them. You think AGuest is hard to understand!!!!!!!!!!

    The Report guy used to hang out in chat with Logical for seeming months on end. Logical was A Believer for a while...............then wasn't.

    Imho, DEFINITELY NOT Bill Bowen.

    waiting

    Edited by - waiting on 26 October 2002 15:9:55

  • gsark
    gsark

    When the silent lambs issue first came up, it got stomped on by Watchtower. But another head came up to take its place, and another and another. It is interesting to go back through time and watch Watchtower play wack-a-mole with the advocates for these children. In the end, Watchtower lost. The game, the prize, everything. It ain't just over, it is soooo over.

    When the 'Ray Franz' issue first came up, it got stomped on by a laot of people. But another head came up to take its place, and another and another. It is interesting to go back through time and watch these persons play wack-a-mole with the critics of Ray Franz. In the end, you have lost. The game, the prize, everything. It ain't just over, it is soooo over.

    The truth will come out no matter what happens. This is only a discussion board. There is a whole big world out there. This issue will slowly wend its way out into the big world; specifically the media and the courtrooms.

    I've said it before and I say it again, slowly.

    allegations of child abuse should be turned over to, and left in, the hands of trained and experienced professionals.

    allegations of conspiacry to aid and abet and harbor child abusers (that's where Ray Fraz and many others come in) should be turned over to, and left in, the hands of trained and experienced professionals.

    That is what Bill Bowen and I and thousands of silent lambs are in the process of doing right now. Leaving it in the hands of professionals. Whatever apologies we may have to offer, we are in the process of saving them them untill after the dust has cleared.

    For myself, these forums are a great place to come and share feelings about what we have seen and heard. But the idea that something someone says here (for or against any person) is earth-shattering and will affect 6 billion people in the world, is just ridiculous. Neither Bill Bowen's nor Ray Franz's 'reputation' is going to live or die because of words on this forum.

    I can assure you that the whole Ray Franz issue is in the hands of trained and experienced proffessionals, that is where it is going to stay. Bill and I are in teh process of doing what we have been telling Watchtower to do: leave it up to the professionals and turn our energy back to our work.

    Editad for spieling adn grammer as usuial.

    Edited by - gsark on 26 October 2002 15:25:49

  • waiting
    waiting

    o yeah. Bjc's the same one - been around here a LONG time.

    http://www.jehovahs-witness.com/forum/thread.aspx?id=7911&site=3

    She makes good points sometimes - but tends to expound exceedingly.

    waiting

  • sf
    sf

    "You, Carl O. Jonsson should have deep RESPECT for what Bill Bowens, Barbara Anderson and the Silentlambs Movement is all about!"

    Barbara Andersen is not a 'member' of The Silentlambs Organization ('Movement)'. She never was a 'member' of this 'mvement'. (incidently, what is the requirement for 'membership' anyway?) She was a valuable instrument in helping 'silent--lambs' and The Silentlambs Organization in re: with the media. She has thus 'moved on'. And is concentrating on continuing to help 'silent--lambs' throughout the rest of her days with related 'projects'.

    sKally

  • sf
    sf
  • deddaisy
    deddaisy

    COJ,

    My intention is not to defend the words of another, I have not enough personal knowledge of the conversations that transpired in order to attempt judgments. And your post sufficiently explains the reason for Mr. Franz, or anyone else for that matter, to decline personally being involved in this type of movement, for the lack of a better word. The apparent reason being that they have no personal knowledge of the matter, nor beliefs in the problem being any greater in the JW community than in the general community.

    Because of the campaigns carried on in the media in some countries to publicize child molestation cases among Jehovahs Witnesses, some seem to have concluded that this crime is more common among Jehovahs Witnesses than elsewhere. I have discussed this with some former Witnesses here, including Rud Persson (Wolfgang Herbst), the co-author of the book, The Sign of the Last DaysWhen?. Our conclusion is that child molestation is no more common among the Witnesses than in the community at large.

    (emphasis added)

    In response to the above quote, some may have seemed to concluded that this crime is more common among Witnesses because of the campaigns in the media, but wasn't the initial reason for these campaigns to publicise the faulty WTS policy which has proved to be insufficient in its handling of molestation victims? That the policy, as it exists, creates a paradise for pedophiles? As I stated in my earlier post, this was Mr. Bowen's, as far as I'm aware, only issue with the WTS, this policy that allowed molestations to continue. The amount of alleged molestation cases uncovered by Barb Anderson is proof of a problem. Just as Mr. Bowen has not studied the chronology of the Bible and is therefore "not aware" of any problem with the WTS's chronology, does this mean that a problem does not exist? Just as you discovered a problem with the WTS's chronology of the Bible and took steps to reveal it, so Mr. Bowen found a problem with the WTS's handling of alleged molestation cases, and took steps to reveal it.

    And it is understood that, just as Mr. Bowen may not join you or Mr. Franz in studies and publishing, you or Mr. Franz may not join Mr. Bowen in his cause. This is without doubt, reasonable.( I hate to be redundant, but once again, want to be clear that I am not addressing Mr. Bowen's initial actions concerning Mr. Franz. My post is in response to your initial post here, not a stance against, or for anyone). Also, in the above quote, you don't state, unless I overlooked it, what data you and Mr. Persson based your "conclusion" regarding child molestation in the JW community on ? I am curious how the Witness community compares to the general community. Though, as I posted earlier, I don't see the correlation between the number of molestations and an insufficient handling of the molestations that occur.

    Some former Witnesses here in Sweden are now planning to start a media campaign about child abuse among the Witnesses, similar to the one going on in the United States. Neither I nor Rud Persson have any wish to become involved in it. Why not? Have we done or do we know about something that we are "covering up", something we "do not wish to reveal"? No. The simple reason is that we have no evidence to present against anybody, nor do we have any evidence to show that child abuse is more common among the Witnesses than in other organizations or in the community at large. If we were to partake in an organized attempt to control this particular crime, and had the time, energy, and resources for it, we would find no reason to pick out the Watchtower organization in particular as the sole object of our activity. In this matter, we fully understand the position taken by Ray Franz, and undoubtedly thousands of other former Witnesses, because we have taken the same position.

    (emphasis added)

    And now I come to my point. In the quote above, I understand that you are explaining the reason for possibly, Mr. Franz, (only because he was included in the thread title), and you and Mr. Persson not wanting to involve yourselves in a media campaign about child abuse among Witnesses. But again in your reasoning you revert to you having "no evidence that the child abuse is more common among the Witneses than other organizations or community at large." And again, I will ask you, must the percentage of molestations be as great as, or greater, than in other organizations or general population before a faulty handling of molestation cases is addressed? What percentage of JW children should be silenced regarding abuse before a policy warrants addressing? How many are too many? I only ask because you mentioned there being no evidence of the problem being any greater among JWs than the general community, but you failed to mention that the general community lacks a public policy that refuses to take action if there are not witnesses to the alleged molestation. This insufficient policy is precisely the reason that one would "pick out" the Watchtower Society if one were to involve oneself. As Mr. Bowen and others have pointed out, the WTS is unlike other organizations, or the general community in its handling of molestation victims.

    As for the individual victims having the responsibility to pursue the WTS regarding this matter, we are all familiar with childhood. If an adult Witnesss will not address the actions of the WTS, it is hardly reasonable for one to conceive of a child whom is being molested to take action. Unfortunately, this is why most lawsuits are filed years later, when the person who was molested is an adult. And then others question this "adult's" motives in coming forward.

    I pointed these quotes out Mr. Jonsson, not to attack you, but to ask for a little clarification. One would be easily led to believe that you are attempting to dissuade others from supporting, other than lawsuits, any organized cause to expose the WTS's handling of molestation victims. If I stand to be corrected, please do so, because my concern is that others, many that admire you, will believe this is the case.

    edited to clarify.

    Sincerely,

    Christina Boucher

    edited to delete the bolding.

    Edited by - deddaisy on 26 October 2002 16:23:49

    Edited by - deddaisy on 27 October 2002 4:49:15

  • reubenfine
    reubenfine

    To COJ.........welcome to the board. I have very much appreciated your intelligent comments and giving us the real "facts."

    To JT.............Right on to everything you've said!

    To bjc...........Please, don't forget to take your medicine today.

    Sincerely,

    Lyle Jay Engle

  • ISP
    ISP

    Well...its nice to see COJ on the board!

    ISP

  • DannyBear
    DannyBear

    Wasasister and Waiting,

    As is true in most instances, when you shoot from the hip, with guesses or assumptions, it is very easy to be 'shot down'.

    Consider myself 'shot'.......

    Danny

  • Nordic
    Nordic

    quote from coj.

    "Our conclusion is that child molstation is no more common among the witnesses than in the community at large."

    I find that comment very arrogant How can you know that is the truth.I think you are wrong about it.

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