Post by Ray Franz (page 6)

kelsey007

Dutchie- though I am from the south and am very slow I do see both sides. I do know that Mr Bowen threw out the mud on Mr Franz. Mr Franz certainly had a right to respond. Having had conversations with Mr Bowen and having been wrongfully attacked by some of his supporters it may be easy for me to take sides. Not having been privy to the conversations between Mr Bowen or Mr Franz I can in reality not take sides on the accusations thrown out by Mr Bowen. I can say that such personal attacks are not productive regardless of whether they are true or not. It seems that in one instance Mr Bowen solicited Mr Franz to align himself with the silent lambs movement and when Mr Franz decided not to Mr Bowen launched an attack. I can state that I believe that Mr Franz has publicly conducted himself in a much more mature fashion than Mr Bowen and I find that attactive about Mr Franz. As to Mr Franz's knowledge of pediphiles I cannot comment. It would be mere speculation on my part. I laugh that the silent lambs supporters say in one breath not to trust all that someone tells or post and in the other breath state that they have 100% loyalty to silent lambs regardless of what they say or do. I was not siding on the issue of something that I have no personal knowledge of.

Francois

This is beginning to take on the flavor of the Rayites vs the Billites and vice-versa, and my guy can whip your guy. Divisions, I think they call it. You all know that we apostates are supposed to be in unity, like a flock in a pen.

Of course the WT thinks "unity" means the same as "uniformity" but that's their misunderstanding of the English language.

francois

Simon

I think abuse is a lot more known about and understood now that it was 20 / 30 years ago ... this is what I understood him to be saying (and agree with)

wasasister

DItto that, Simon. That's exactly what the sentence said to me, and I'll put my reading comprehension up against anyone's. Some of this is going to come down to semantics and "filters."

waiting

The media spotlight and pressure of pushing forward a movement that is very important can cause almost anyone to break. Most movements of this sort are well financed and the leaders will have lawyers and advisors to help them in making public statements. Silentlambs does not fit into that category.
I honestly feel that Silentlambs wishes these statements had never been made. That they have simply cracked under the pressure. LB

GREAT POINT! Thank you!

And I agree with Simon I KNOW THAT ABUSE WAS NOT SPOKEN ABOUT AMONG '"NICE PEOPLE" BACK THEN. Why do you think so many older abuse victims are speaking up NOW? It's gotten to be politically acceptable to do so.

"Back then" it was dead silence. If a person did speak up - she received a very cold shoulder, at least in public. A boy just didn't speak up. It happened, but people just didn't talk about "such things."

I hope this matter can be put to rest, and I hope Bill comes forth with a *meaningful response.*

waiting

Edited by - waiting on 24 October 2002 17:54:29

BeelzeDub

I find it ironic how some demand that Mr Franz be expected to register and be available to answer any questions put to him simply because a post was made on his behalf to respond to a personal attack made upon his character on this forum. While at the same time the Silent Lambs representative who is a registered user of this forum and uses it frequently to advance his cause does respond to questions raised to him. Sounds a bit hypocritical to me.

wednesday

I reread the post and it does seem to say that Ray is saying that he does not believe that such things existed years ago-same as he didn't believe the homosexual thing existed years ago. We all know it did-they just stayed in hiding. Same with child and spouse and women abuse. it has always existed-people just didn't feel it was something they should get involved in. It was an accepted thing many years ago for children to be beat, women too. Today there is much focus on these things. I think mr. Fanz may have beeen in bethel too long and not out in the real world.

Edited by - wednesday on 24 October 2002 17:59:47

Dismembered

kelsey007,

Your words however reminded me of what an elder said to me in 1973. He stated that if the WT said that the JWs should start celebrating christmas he would do so without question. That statement was what started many years of soul- searching for me in regards to my 100% loyalty to the organization. Is it man or an organization that I align myself with or is it truth?

Touche kelsey007 Touche. Your above quote, so true as it is, leaves me so sickened and gut wrenched. To think of the 100% loyalty that our family had to this organization and what a waste it turns out to have been, even as we post here. I have experienced the same mentality from so many still duped in the confinds of that cult.

P.S. glad your still here, hope your son is doing better too

kelsey007

Wednsday- Mr Franz can only speak from the perspctive that he knows. Why is his well worded and thought out repsonse being broken down word for word. Does one forget that he only felt compelled to provide a response due to harsh allegations having been brought to this arena- a forum that he has never even participated in? That is what is wrong with this picture. Mr Franz has not brought evil accusations against anyone here. But evil accusations were brought against him here and when he responds the reason for his response are overlooked and he is picked apart because he was locked in bethal for his adult life and saw things only in that frame for years. He has never put himself on an ugly mission to discredit. He has never sought to destroy. He has in a very good way enlightened and expressed genuine love for those he feels are misguided as he once was.

IslandWoman

Mulan wrote,

I wish Bill would write an apology here. We need it. The other post he made, was not an apology.

I agree.

IW

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