Please convince me I'm wrong!

by StinkyPantz 64 Replies latest watchtower beliefs

  • pomegranate
    It is apparent through various means that the Earth is millions of years old. One way we know this is because the various continents used to be one continent and has over the course of millions of years separated (over and over again). If you look on a map you can see how they used to fit together. Scientists have measured how far the continents move per year and it would have taken possibly hundreds of thousands of years to have separated this far. (But the Earth was created only a few thousand years ago, right?)

    Well no. The earth is millions of years old. I believe what happens to most when reading the Bible is they read it through someone else's understanding (which, is OK), but rather than put that particular understanding thoroughly to the test, they just believe it hook line and sinker. Then when their present understanding IS tested, it sinks. Leaving doubt. I found that out for myself, as that's exactly what I did. (ie JW's)

    The mainstreamers believe the "days" in Genesis are 24 hour divisions, or some like JW's believe in the 7 thousand year day hoopla. I don't believe either is true. "Days" to me are just divisions of the works done by God. These divisions are not divisions of equal time or time periods invented by man, but divisions of specific "work" events that took place by God, each taking differing amounts of time.

    Gen 1:9
    9 And God said, "Let the water under the sky be gathered to one place, and let dry ground appear."

    This small sentence above could uncompass many many years. I have accepted it as being a long time of geological cataclysmic events like massive large scale erupting volcanic activity, shifting tectonic plates, swelling and pooling waters. God, taking his time (afterall, God does have ALL THE TIME IN THE WORLD, why rush it? ) , blasting away at this global ball with his power, carving the surface with bursts of magma flow and fracturing land masses, like an artist works at a sculpture. Pulling, pushing, lifting up, crushing down, blasting, seperating, tearing, fracturing then mending, God using the lava ooze from the center of the earth as his oils on canvas...Fine Art does take time, right? The earth took time and plenty of it.

    Also, fossil records have unearthed bones that are thousands of years old, some of which are similar to homo-sapiens (modern day humans), such as homo-erectus, home-habilis, and Neandertals. These show how weve evolved over millions of years (dont they?).

    I believe the fossil record is quite naked and nude when it comes to supporting evolution. Transistions should be more plentiful than static species. As a matter of fact, there should be an overwhelming abundance of transitions. Afterall, evolution is all about transistion, not standing still. The fossil record in no way supports life in transistion. It supports static life re-creating same species of life. It supports fully formed life with all parts working and fully functional.

    For a certainty, all the species before man, lived millions of years before the first man arrived, with amazing numbers being wiped out enmass. The layers of fossil record do prove this to be true. There's good SCIENTIFIC reason for it to be that way too.

    With all of this evidence and much more, I still find myself wanting to believe in God (at least the Christian God), but most if not all evidence points against it. My biggest fear and the main reason I cant give up my belief in God is because I hate the idea that I will one day not exist.

    Well, as you can see, I look at the evidence differently. I don't believe science undermines God's existence or the Bible, rather it reaffirms it for me. As far as your fears go...I don't believe there is any man that can help you in that regard. When I was young and fearful, I would run to my parents. Now, it's no different, just on a much grander scale. (Proverbs 2)

    So, I wonder is there anyone out that that can: 1) intelligently and preferably scientifically refute that the Earth has been around for millions of years and that humans have evolved over millions of years and

    I don't refute the earth being very very old so I can't do that for you, and I don't believe the Bible does either. It's people that say the Bible refutes it by their present understanding, when in fact it really doesn't. Humans, though, are fairly recent in relation to the age of the earth and the other species of procreators.

    2) prove with only a reasonable doubt that there is a God. I want to believe but this whole college education thing is mixing everything up. I now see why the Society was so against it.

    If GOD wants you to know He exists, He will make Himself known to you. If you want to believe, then I believe there is a reason for it.

    Don't let college mix things up. Look through different eyes. I personally use these kind of eyes:

    Rom 1:20
    For since the creation of the world God's invisible qualities-his eternal power and divine nature-have been clearly seen, being understood from what has been made, so that men are without excuse.

    I "see" God.

    (My view, not to be construed as something that's for you, or anyone else.)

    Edited by - pomegranate on 23 October 2002 8:14:7

  • Tashawaa

    This is my own personal thought and belief... its "developing and changing" but its what I've settled on. Sometimes, I'm not sure what I "believe", but I know what I don't believe. I do believe and trust in a joint human conscienousness. For example, all religions teach "life after death", they differ but they all agree that "something" survives. Now, whether we have an energy, life force with our "spirit", that leaves once the body dies, we could. I tend to lean towards evolution, but I don't discount a life force that keeps returning or being used in different forms. Life is full of cycles - rain, weather, etc. and I like to think that "life" is a cycle also. Sometimes I think all "God" is, is the miracle of this life force that works through everything from germs to us, and since no one really understands or can explain it, we (as humans) worship it.

    Hmmm... now that I'm reading this in print, sounds kinda stupid.

  • RunningMan

    Isaac Assimov (one of my heros) wrote an essay on the subject of "Security Beliefs".

    The basic premise of the article is that you should be doubly skeptical of any belief that makes you feel good. When an idea comes along that makes people feel comfortable, they tend to rationalize their arguements, weighting the evidence in favor of their preference.

    He then went on to give several examples of security beliefs:
    1 - there is a God
    2 - there is really no such thing as death
    3 - there are powers that can be influenced by our actions
    4 - you am better than others
    and a couple others that I forget.

    The fact that these beliefs are comforting does not make them untrue. It simply means that we must assign a higher level of proof to them, and watch out for our own bias.

    When Stephen Hawking wrote the book "A Brief History of Time", he went looking for God's role in the universe. What he found was a universe in which God has no function.

    I think you aleady realize the truth, and are looking for a reason to deny it.

    There is no God.

  • shera

    I'm one of those people who believe in(most) evoultion and God.I believe the earth itself was here long before God started to create life on earth.

    People say how can you fanthom God had no beginning....I cannot fanthom life began from nothing.I cannot fanthom God had no beginning.

    I believe there was inteligence,behind this.God is out there,thats just my faith and my opinion

    (i am having a bad spelling day,as long as you can make out my words)

  • Nowhere

    StinkyPantz wrote:

    So, I wonder is there anyone out that that can: 1) intelligently and preferably scientifically refute that the Earth has been around for millions of years and that humans have evolved over millions of years and 2) prove with only a reasonable doubt that there is a God.

    Answer no.1: The earth has been around for millions of years. Thats a fact. You can always say that the earth is young, but only if you pretend that science don't exist. First of all, we already have a very good explanation of the universe. And that models starts just after big bang. We know how the sun works, how long it must have been out there to behave the way it does, we know how the sun was born and we know by measuring the velocities and placement of galaxies to know at least that the universe is older than we can imagine. Billions of years old. And of course we also have the various metods of radiactive dating to measure ages here on earth.

    I know the witnesses and many other religious groups try to discredit science and physics, by misqoutings and by relying on obscure "scientists" (often members of other religious groups) that has thier own ideas of how things work, for thier sources. But not one respected scientist would give support to thier ideas. Period.

    But were does that put God? Personally I believe in God. I think that someone or something must have started all this. Something made up the rules that we now obey, whether if we like it or not.

    Answer no.2: x + y = a, therefor God exists! We can never prove that God exists, and we can never prove that he doesn't exist. But the number of lucky "coincidenses" required to produce an environment in which life as we know it is possible, seems to defy the laws of chance (and I'm not talking about evolution, evolution seems very possible compared to the chance of a universe as we know it). There can only be two explanations, either God made the rules for the universe or there are an infinite number of different universes. I prefer the first explanation. Most scientists prefer the latter.

    And does it really matter if God personally created us or if he made the rules in a way that would lead to human life on planet earth through evolution? I don't think so.

  • Zechariah


    Your post at this time I regard as nothing less than a miracle. Right away you will readily observe that only believers can see miracles. To unbelievers any true miracle would be instantly regarded as having a logical natural cause. I feel strongly from the gist of your post you secretly desire to see miracles. But you dont know how?

    The miracle for me is that you have set me up to go to a new phase of my mission from God. It is a mssion I now realize I was being trained for from birth and probably beforehand. I realize that now my destiny and my reason for living is for this very time. I feel extremely blessed to have a special role in the service of the Creator (God).

    The mind of the skeptic you have developed I know forces you to doubt such inspiration from God exists as you have come to doubt that God himself exists. God is something you always believed in and which brought you comfort no doubt most all your life. If you are honest you will admit the world is now a scarier place and your enjoyment of life has greatly diminished.

    For the past twenty years I have recieved intensive training from the holy spirit.
    Through this training I have become a expert psychologist the likes of my man Dr. Phil I recently spoke about. In the last five years or more on the internet I have performed a intense psychological analysis of belief and unbelief. What I quickly became aware of is that believers and unbelievers in God are direct polar opposites in spirit. I can confidently say that there are only two kinds of people in the world believers and unbelievers.

    There is nothing realistic about either of these viewpoints that has any bearing on facts. They are both merely perceptions. They are the filters (colored glasses) through which we see the world. Facts do not control what we believe. Facts are presented to us but then what those facts mean to us and how we understand them are determined by what we believe.

    I have been taught some key things. I desire to share those things with others. They are:

    • There is nothing concidental in life.
    • We are never alone for the spirit world participates in every aspect of our lives.
    • There is no reality only perception.
    • Belief and unbelief are choices.

    Suggestions For living:
    • Do not believe anything that does not benefit you.
    • Talk to yourself constantly telling yourself positive things.
    • Believe in God and his operation within us.
    • How To Change Your Life

    • My favorite teaching poem by a anonymous author goes like this: Mind the master power that moulds and makes; And man is Mind and ever more he takes; The tools of thought and shaping what he wills; brings forth a thousand joys and a thousand ills; Man thinks in secret and it comes to pass; environment is but his looking glass.

    Unbelief is chosen due to child abandonment type issues where one feels God has abandoned them and allowed them to suffer innocently. This gives rise to extreme personal animosity towards God and everything connected to him.

    It a intense fear of being further disappointed where one is in rebellion against his lifes circumstances gives up on his opportunities to be happy. He does this by refusing to trust people or God. They feel if they don't trust then no one can hurt them anymore.

    Generalizations which vary only by degree

    light colors (yellow) dark color (black)
    optimists pessimists (realists)
    loves change Hates change
    trusting mistrustful
    hopeful hopeless
    thinks positive thinks negative
    counts blessings counts troubles

    Please note these blunt things I say is not intended to offend anyone or put them down. Its intent is to share what I've been taught by the spirit how to everlastingly and even immediately benefit ourselves.

    My Zechariah Mission

    Derived from the book of Zechariah
    As I have come to understand it

    Go to Gods People (all whose hearts are right with God) and tell them to get on with the building of the temple (man himself) and complete it. Completing the temple means becoming perfect by being completely equipped for every good work. We are so equipped by putting on spiritual armor and gaining the fruitages of the spirit as a result. All this is so that God can bless us as he always wanted to do beyond our wildest dreams and return those captive to the nations back to Jerusalem (spiritual place where God resides.)

    It took me many years after receiving my inspired dream of being Zechariah before I fully understood my mission. With the help of everyone here especially unbelievers I see clearly what that mission is.

    I sincerely desire people are receptive to my mission.

    It has been for me faith that has turned itself into a monumental personal mission. Although being prepared for ten years I am now only beginning to fulfill to fulfill that mission.

    The same thing is possible for anyone by the willing exercise of faith.

    Faith is belief contrary to what the senses perceive. In order to ever possess it you have to be willing to trust. The inherent fear of the unbeliever to trust is the obstacle to faith.

    Close personal examination is a first step towards belief. You have to decide and appreciate which course is most beneficial for you.

    Be wise.


    Edited by - zechariah on 23 October 2002 14:21:23

  • Farkel


    : Since I have stopped attending the meetings, I have had a loss of faith in God. I consider myself an agnostic teetering on being a full blown atheist.

    Believe it or not, that's a pretty common occurrence. I know I went through it and was agnostic for over ten years. I think it happens because we were so deceived as dubs that we ended up not trusting anything to do with religion or God.

    Just hang out with it and don't try to fight it. It's quite possible that after you get over the shock of being deceived, you'll find some sort of faith that works for you. Just don't push it. Let it come naturally, if at all.


  • StinkyPantz


    Yes, I have read experiences from people that have gone through near death experiences. I took a psychology of consciousness class and I examined almost every area of consciousness that you could think of. I also know that meditation is supposed to be good for you and Ive tried it before, so maybe Ill take your advice, Ill take all of the help I can get.


    I just wanted to let you know that you are one of my favorite posters! But anyway, I think Ill end up with Psychology and Forensic Science majors and minors in Criminal Justice, Sociology and Spanish. I want to start out as a crime scene investigator and also work in the crime lab, after several years I want to get into the FBI as a Special Agent and eventually end up as a Criminal Profiler for the FBI. As I get closer to retirement I think Id like to simply supervise a crime lab. Crazy, huh? But I think itll be very exciting.

    By the way, CSI is awesome. I only watch it and Law & Order.

    Coolbreeze -

    I too believe that religion is merely another of mans agenda, but I hope that religious people can still help me in some way. I know that regardless where I end up as far as my believe in a god I will never again be a part of organized religion.

    Pomegranate -

    Why cant you accept that the universe just happened from nothing but a godlike creator can? I used to feel as you do that the days mentioned in the Bible could still mean millions of years each in Gods eyes, but now I just dont know if I can handle that. You said, If GOD wants you to know He exists, He will make Himself known to you. Does this mean that god doesnt want some people to know? Because many are atheist and agnostic like me, does this mean we arent worthy?


    Interesting perspective, thank you!


    I agree with you but part of me still wants to believe, I just cant seem to get past it.


    Like you said, why can people believe God had no beginning but the universe had to? I cant. I could possibly accept there was a God, but he mustve had a beginning too, but if thats the case, did he have a Creator? So many questions, so few answers

    Nowhere -

    So if the universe had a beginning, did God? And if so, did he just appear one day, did he evolve, or did our creator have a creator? Doesn't an almighty God defy the laws of chance?


    I dont even know where to begin. You first few statements seem a bit self-serving, like you are happy to be helping yourself and not necessarily me. Why do you supposed God chose certain ones to be his servants instead of allowing us all to see him; seems a bit unfair dontcha think? Why are you so special, so blessed?

    So you are an expert psychologists, huh? Well, Im sorry but just your word doesnt reassure me. Especially if you gained this training via a spirit and the internet. You say that nothing in life is coincidental, could you elaborate? This seems to like you believe everyone and everything has a prelaid plan. Was it a gods plan that my best friend was killed by her father? You also said, Do not believe anything that does not benefit you. What?! You must be joking. If we believed only the things that benefit us, then we would never get anything accomplished.

    I discount everything in this part of your post,

    light colors (yellow) dark color (black)
    optimists pessimists (realists)
    loves change Hates change
    trusting mistrustful
    hopeful hopeless
    thinks positive thinks negative
    counts blessings counts troubles

    because they are absolutely wrong. What do you base these on? I see myself as an unbeliever but I am very optimistic (ask my husband), I also am hopeful about my life and career and future, I think positively and I am very open to change.

    Last but not least I must comment on this statement, If you are honest you will admit the world is now a scarier place and your enjoyment of life has greatly diminished. Sorry but wrong again. My life is better now than it has ever been. I am happily married, Im in college, Im moving to Florida in a few months, and Im looking forward to kids! Belief in god made my life miserable. I was constantly afraid of what displeased him, and I was very insecure because of it. Even though that is the case, Id like to know either way, and I just dont think I ever will. I am happy that you have faith in god, but you havent convinced me. Maybe I havent actually, set [you] up to go to a new phase of [your] mission from God.


    Im impatient, what can I say?

  • Tashawaa

    StinkyPantz - don't get me going... I question alot. Use to get me in "trouble"... somehow I'd always shut up the group (service). For eg. it use to bug the hell out of me that the Creation Book and now the Creator Book basically discount evolution because no one can explain where "life" originated... yet it never phases them that they all believe that the most intelligent, powerful, all knowing, all giving, blah blah blah just "existed". How wonderful! My mind can't wrap itself around this logic. To tell a scientist he's foolish because he can't explain the "spark" of life, yet I can't tell him where God came from. Ohhh, makes me real smart!!!

    Truthfully, if I believe in God, which I'm not sure I do, I have to believe that everything is exactly the way he wants it. No mistakes. Otherwise, do we have a "perfect" God?

    I learn from nature. The violence in animals - but also their personalities, and social structures. Homosexuality exists in nature. So does abundant variety. I believe if people want, they can worship God in a variety of ways... only man "limits" the worship to rules. If "God" only wanted one way of worship then it would be clear. It is not clear.

  • crownboy

    Tashawaa said:

    it use to bug the hell out of me that the Creation Book and now the Creator Book basically discount evolution because no one can explain where "life" originated... yet it never phases them that they all believe that the most intelligent, powerful, all knowing, all giving, blah blah blah just "existed". How wonderful! My mind can't wrap itself around this logic.

    Same here with me. Something just had to be there uncreated. It's best you make that uncreated entity the thing you definitely know exist (the universe), because any reason you give requiring that the universe need be designed can be turned on God's head as well (unless you arbitrarily change the rules at God. If so, why not change the rules one step before? ) Of course that doesn't mean God can't exist, but he certainly isn't a necessity.

    StinkyPantz, I guess I can't convince you you're wrong, but eventually you'll no doubt reach some kind of end. As Farkel said, it could take some time, though.

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