by Amazing 148 Replies latest jw friends
I wonder if all of us here expect too much; I also wonder if we forget that words and discussions are very malleable, and what one remembers as having been said is usually not what the other said.
Some think Bill is a little hot headed. Big f****** deal. Let's give the benefit of the doubt to both men, and FORGET IT AND GET ON TO SUPPORTING VICTIMS AND WORKING TO GET THE FACTS OUT ABOUT THE WT.
Let's give the benefit of the doubt to both men, and FORGET IT...
I say, let's do the same for the governing body. Give them the benefit of the doubt, not hold them accountable, forget it, and move on to more important things!!
Well said, pistoff. NOW we're talkin'.
Kelsey007 wrote (again): "As I asked in earlier posts"...
http://www.jehovahs-witness.com/forum/thread.aspx?id=38186&site=3&page=4
---and----
http://www.jehovahs-witness.com/forum/thread.aspx?id=38385&site=3
---and----
http://www.jehovahs-witness.com/forum/thread.aspx?id=38318&site=3&page=2
---and----
http://www.jehovahs-witness.com/forum/thread.aspx?id=38401&page=1&site=3#523206
Kelsey007 continues... "Besides marches and court cases what aid has Silent Lambs offered or given to abuse victims?" Why, after this length of time, does Mr Bowen, whose only know credential is having been an elder, take the sole responsibility in answering and responding to callers seeking aid? Where are the professionals that he continually bashes the WT for not havin or offering?"
You sound like a broken record, Kelsey. Your feigned concern for victims is getting old. I'm an abuse victim and you depress the hell out of me. However, since a few days have passed, maybe you did finally decide to help silentlambs obtain more therapists around the country (or at least in your own area) to be listed as referral-therapists at silentlambs.org? Please do tell: http://www.jehovahs-witness.com/forum/thread.aspx?id=38186&site=3&page=4
GRITS
Edited by - Grits on 12 October 2002 6:38:33
Og wrote:
hawk, I think teejay's point is that the apology was pretty mild compared to the language and tone reported by Hillary Step. I would sure like to see an explanation for words like "dickhead" and a demand to "pledge" loyalty. I believe HS; I've also seen some intemperate language from Bill on this forum - it would be nice to see an equally passionate explanation/apology.
Please refer to the below post by BB,and I believe you will find your explanation. It's very obvious, imho, why someone would resort to words like "dickhead" when the integrity of one of the abuse survivors is being severely criticized and called into question. IMO, everyone who doubts abuse survivors and their accounts are equally acting like "d***heads." I guess you would have walk in our shoes to understand that, or to truly "get the big picture."
Og continued... "Speaking for myself, I am trying to find a way to respect and support Bill and Silentlambs, and a detailed explanation of conduct that seems bizarre would be a big help.
I sincerely hope the below will help you in that endeavor.
Portions snipped from silentlambs a/k/a Bill's post of Oct 8, 2002 17:49: http://www.jehovahs-witness.com/forum/thread.aspx?id=38136&site=3&page=2
All I can say is the purpose of my emails to HS was to defend Pat.There was private information disclosed therein that I did not think she would have wished shared on a public forum, thus the reason for my private email. I will continue to defend her and support the decision she made to speak out about her abuse. At silentlambs we support ALL abuse survivors and simply tell them they are believed, I have no ego when it comes to this. I am sorry that portions of private email is being allowed to cloud the real issues that must go forward, I am sorry that some allow bitterness to keep them from seeing the big picture.From day one I have never defended myself from personal attacks, I have only defended when victims are attacked or what the purpose of silentlambs as an organization is. I will continue that venue.
For those of you who have questions raised in your minds, I think the record to date is all I have to stand on. It is my wish to help people not hurt them, to bring people together for a positive purpose in helping protect children. I have no ill will toward HS he of course is entitled to his opinons, if you email or call me I will be glad to address any concerns you may have about silentlambs or the direction that we intend to go in the future, but I refuse in anyway to speak ill of HS. He is a good man and I hope he comes around.silentlambs
Of course, I can only speak for myself, but I would venture to guess that I speak for many of the regular posters to the SL Guestbook (and I will direct them here so they can voice their own opinions) that we would on any given day-and-time rather have on our side someone who obviously understands the issues of abuse and its aftereffects and BELIEVES WITHOUT QUESTION; and who is passionate about doing something about it, who endlessly lends a helping hand and a listening ear; and who continues forward in spite of all the criticism, even if he is an "unpolished politically incorrect Maverick." We would take B.Bowen any day over all of the "intellectualizers" here who think they know what the "victims" want. It's clear to us you do NOT know what we need or want. By criticizing the one who has helped so many, you are NOT making us happy, you are depressing the hell out of us. I, for one, am glad Bowen told off HS and anybody else who criticizes victims and their abuse histories/stories, because even many parents don't even stand up for their own abused kids because they are cowards and scaredy cats (except ones like Mike Pence, bless you and your family -- your kids are Fantastic!!!), yet B.Bowen is not afraid to stand up and speak out FOR THE VICTIMS, and from the sound of it, not are many of you who continue to criticize from the very day of the March in NY. It HELPED US. WE (victims) LIKED IT. WE (fellow victims) BELIEVE PAT and ANY OTHERS. WE (victims) NEED to speak out. WE (victims) LOVED the "white shirts" as HS referred to them, and others who have criticized the shirts, the March itself, and the victims themselves. Bill obviously understands the importance of what we need as PERSONALIZED (not DEpersonalized) indivdiuals. Who else among you "intellectualizers" GETS the "big picture"?
Lest anyone forget all of the enormous amount of criticism silentlambs and the victims have "endured" since we all came back (very happy, I might add) from NY, here's a few. Please feel free to refresh your memories:
http://www.jehovahs-witness.com/forum/thread.aspx?id=37570&page=4&site=3#510967
http://www.jehovahs-witness.com/forum/thread.aspx?id=37671&page=1&site=3#509732
http://www.jehovahs-witness.com/forum/thread.aspx?id=37716&page=1&site=3#510719
http://www.jehovahs-witness.com/forum/thread.aspx?id=37694&site=3
http://www.jehovahs-witness.com/forum/thread.aspx?id=37628&site=3
http://www.jehovahs-witness.com/forum/thread.aspx?id=37664&page=2&site=3#509909
http://www.jehovahs-witness.com/forum/thread.aspx?id=37665&page=1&site=3#509700
http://www.jehovahs-witness.com/forum/thread.aspx?id=4734&site=3
http://www.jehovahs-witness.com/forum/thread.aspx?id=37681&site=3
Why is it so hard to understand that even the strongest of the strong might "fly off the handle" after having to listen to all of the crap above, and after having worked so hard for so long, only to come back from NY to that kind of crap above? I'm surprised Bowen didn't blow his top before he did. From now on, if you're not a "survivor," please keep your criticisms curtailed. When we as "victims/survivors" are good and sick of Bowen, WE will be the ones to boot him out, not you "intellectualizers." And if you want to criticize, make suggestions or get more info, why not do as Bowen suggests and Write/Call/Email him personally?
GRITS
Edited by - Grits on 12 October 2002 7:59:16
What I find very sad here is that the understanding of what happened here is that this has been a disagreement between Bill Bowen and Ray Franz" that needed to be cleared up.
From what I've read from the beginning of this diatribe until now is that Bill Bowen dragged Ray Franz into all of this by his statements and allegations alone. Prior to that Ray was perhaps sitting in his living room minding his own business. He never had any responsibiltity to answer Mr. Bowen's allegations simply because they were leveled, any more than he had any responsibility to rise to the cause of silentlambs.
That does not diminish the work of silentlambs nor does it diminish what Ray Franz has accomplished.
It has, however diminished, by his own actions, the reputation of Bill Bowen. I'm sorry, take me to task for my statement if you'd like but it's how I feel. One cannot and should not ever slander another in a public forum for any reason and then say "oops, there was a misunderstanding" I don't really care if once he comes back from his world travels, Bill Bowen finally answers the pertinent questions asked of him or admits to acting like an ass here. He's lost alot of confidence.
I've never been a JW. Never studied with the JW's. I came here to understand what it was that someone I loved was into. I came, I learned and I met some awesome people. I also found a cause. Since I've been here, I've launched my own little local campaign to ensure that the WTS isn't able to snare any more victims into it's cult. Noone knows about what I've been doing in my little corner of the world because I don't need them to. I'm doing my part. I don't need any recognition for it. It's just the right thing to do. And I've rallied others to the cause-who have never been JW either- because it's the right thing to do and what is happening is SO WRONG.
There are people out there who will listen, who will rise up for this cause. Those who have never set foot in a Kingdom Hall. They are already there.
But, in order to get people to listen, and then to want to help, you have to sound and appear reasonable. I'm sorry, but this ain't reasonable at all. And it just makes you sound like a fanatic. Slander isn't reasonable. Even if you can say that somehow you misunderstood what you heard- still looks bad.
Leaders are held to a higher standard than others. Look at the thread that started out talking about how President Bush was pronouncing the word "nuclear". We would judge him for the pronunciation of a word. Yet, it is clear that because he is leader, he will be held to his words. No?
Bill, you are a leader for a cause. This ain't the kingdom hall politics anymore or even the WTS game. You have national and global attention. You and your cause have the ability to affect change. You are not going to do that by trying to bully or slander someone into rattling sabers for you or adding their credibilty to your cause. And "oops, we might have misunderstood one another" isn't going to fly in the open market of opinion you need behind you. Sorry, that's just the way it is.
Although I really appreciate Amazing's effort to get to the bottom of this -thank you amazing- the fact is that there should never have been a need in the first place. This was not a disagreement between Ray and Bill that was made "all better" with a phone call and an airwave handshake. Ray was dragged into this. Blindsided. As have all of you been who believe they should just make up and be friends. IMO, Ray Franz should never have needed to speak at all.
Bill, people are watching-poeple around the world-jw's, ex-jw's and worldly people, If you are truly sincere about your efforts and what you tout as a mission statement, then rise to the occasion. If not, and you choose to continue on this path, your mission will be lost in a sea of discontent and misttrust.
XW
I was going to edit this for typos, etc. but I'm just too damn tired. If you find a type, deal with it.
yea, what xena said!
nite, mac
Ray was dragged into this. Blindsided. As have all of you been who believe they should just make up and be friends. IMO, Ray Franz should never have needed to speak at all. -- XenaWarrior
*That* is what makes Bowen's tirade so repulsive. Had there even been PROOF to support his allegations (and now we know positively that there IS NO PROOF, only the rants of possibly a megalomaniac), a reasonable way to handle the matter would have been in private. To publicly excoriate a private individual -- especially one held in such high esteem as Ray is 'round here -- the way Bowen did Brother Franz is reprehensible in the extreme.
I could be wrong but Bowen lost a lot of ground this week, ground that in my opinion he's likely to NEVER recover.
Perhaps Bill made a mistake; maybe he made a big mistake. At the very least there was a huge misunderstanding, but now there is no misunderstanding. The two have talked and settled their differences. Let it rest, please. Stop this ranting please.
By bashing Bill we hurt the cause of Silentlambs. By hurting the cause we hurt those still in need of our love, help and support.
Help the Silentlambs, please. Love them and give them all the support possible. Damn Bill if you must, but love the Silentlambs cause he champions, please.
Grits, Xena's comments capture my feelings well enough. Further response by me would be superfluous.
Sam Beli,
You think your taking the high ground on this one, don't you? Well I beg to differ.
Just because two people shake hands over a matter, does not in the least suggest the issues are resolved. To tell you the truth, I cannot even imagine any other outcome, other than , where Ray Franz is one of the combatants. I think his demeanor, just from his writings alone, display a tone of reconciliation. Not to mention Amazing words as regards his conversation with Ray.
So for you to come in here and bold face tell everyone to shut up about it, is imo counter productive.
It is issues like these, that made jw life almost unbearable. People tip toeing around each other's foibles, backbiting and rumor mongering. There is far more damage done, by letting this type of behaviour pass. Smoldering resentment equals withdrawn support.
You cannot legislate reactions. I don't care one iota what the cause is, how important you or anyone else thinks it is, there is no excuse for dragging someones name through the mud based on hearsay and inuendo. Bill did just that in the case of Ray Franz, he is suffering for doing so, and rightly so.
Danny
