Comments from Ray Franz re Bill Bowen

by Amazing 148 Replies latest jw friends

• 

  waiting

  This is such a convoluted situation. I love HS dearly....in an older sister sorta way.

  I respect Bill and all he's accomplished, even though if he talked to me the way he did HS & Queen Beetle, I'd tell him to shove it.

  Ray Franz' book, Crisis of Conscience was the first time I really slammed a book down because of the truths I was reading.

  And I thank Amazing for his efforts to straighten this situation out.....

  I thought the support was always for the cause, not the champion, but it seems it's another popularity contest. - willy think

  But I agree with this quote the most - it's the same thought that Hawk, Sam Beli, and some others have been saying, including me. Men are always gonna be less than perfect. Well, that can go for women too, eh?

  HEY ISLAND WOMAN!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!

  Why not drag your butt up to Myrtle Beach in a couple of weeks for the Apostafest Nov 9th - we can *discuss* this over beer & whatever? Huh? Huh? Until then............peace?

  waiting
• 

  Amazing

  Hi Waiting: Regarding popularity contest, you noted,

  But I agree with this quote the most - it's the same thought that Hawk, Sam Beli, and some others have been saying, including me.

  I wish it were a simple popularity contest, then Bill would have nothing to worry about. I don't know if you read my posts just prior to this, as I adressed this issue in more detail. It seems to me that the issue is credibility ... an important, vital ingredient to the success formula to carry out leadership of any cause. What do you think?

  Edited by - Amazing on 16 October 2002 13:14:13
• 

  Mulan

  Amazing, check your email.
• 

  Valis

  No answers to my questions or a sincere version of this...tsk tsk..

  Hi everyone. I am so sorry for shooting my mouth off recently, particularly to respected people such as Ray Franz and Hillary Step. I have felt under a lot of pressure lately, and I over reacted to several situations. I know that I can come across sometimes as being bombastic and ego seeking, but this is just my secular training taking over. I seem to have made the mistake of behaving like a company director berating his employees in my enthusiasm to get things done.

  I hope that you can all overlook my foolishness and still support Silent Lambs, I still feel that I am the best person to do this, especially now that I am a wiser and somewhat chastened man.

  Many thanks.

  Sincerely,

  District Overbeer
• 

  waiting

  Hey Amazing,

  Well, to be honest, I'm stumped on this one. Neither man has lost credibility in my estimation. I think if we center on the man more than the cause.............the cause will suffer because the man most likely won't live up to our expectations. Just human nature.

  I understand your thinking about GB vs cause............but the GB has always had their own cause ahead of the cause of their people. As is the case in the majority of organizations, imho. Hell, even Russell said that!

  Can Bill be tad full of himself, or just plain tired and irritable? Yep. If he believes in God, he probably does think he has God's blessing. Wouldn't God, if he exists, bless a group of people trying to help abused children? One would think so, eh? I have no problem with that, btw.

  Personally? I think Bill just gets grumpy and speaks out of turn. Not like that has ever happened to anyone else, eh? Perhaps Bill does have an ego! AS IF he's the only man alive to have THAT situation!

  Perhaps that's the primary reason that people with money don't speak directly to people a lot of time.Perhaps if Bill and/or SilentLambs received more money, then he could have a PR person give a canned response for him - keep him out of all the side commotion.

  Of course, that's what JR Brown does for the GB, is it not? Isn't that one reason people get so angry at the GB - they won't speak for themselves? Well, Bill does speak for himself, and we get angry at that too.

  So I guess part of it is accepting that Bill is an average person just like us - pimples and all. If we want to know what's really going on - even in a limited way......then we deal with the Real Bill. If we want PR, then we give enough money so that someone speaks for Bill...but then we don't get the Real Bill. And I assume that there would be a thread complaining about that too.

  Quite a dilemma, eh?

  Real Waiting - who really does appreciate your efforts in this thing.
• 

  waiting

  Hi everyone. I am so sorry for shooting my mouth off recently, particularly to respected people such as Ray Franz and Hillary Step. I have felt under a lot of pressure lately, and I over reacted to several situations. I know that I can come across sometimes as being bombastic and ego seeking, but this is just my secular training taking over. I seem to have made the mistake of behaving like a company director berating his employees in my enthusiasm to get things done.

  I hope that you can all overlook my foolishness and still support Silent Lambs, I still feel that I am the best person to do this, especially now that I am a wiser and somewhat chastened man.

  Many thanks .

  "No answers to my questions or a sincere version of this...tsk tsk.. "- valis

  Valis - where is the original quote found at..........and are we to assume your quoting Bill? You know better than to put a quote up like that. God, I sound like your mother now.

  Leaving your sarcasm aside............how WILL you tell if one's words are sincere or not? And who assigned you our judge and who says anyone has to answer your questions? Did you ever think Bill just doesn't want to answer you? If he uses the same sarcasm as you do....you'll perhaps judge him insincere, once again. Perhaps he thinks he's in a no-win situation. I'm beginning to think that.

  Weren't you also the one who wanted to set up "a group of us" (assuming you were not referring to the victims - as I don't think you've ever said you were molested/raped) to decide whether incest/rape victims' accounts were succinct, sincere, true, etc? You wrote that the victims should submit their accounts to "a group of us" to be verified by "a group of us."

  A hell of a lot of judging is going on within the last month around here. Personally speaking, the above apology sounds sincere to me - particularily coming from a man. Men aren't reknowned for making apologies in the first damned place. Usually it's women, btw, who then have the audacity to say "But that doesn't sound like a sincere apology to me.........." at which time everyone rolls their eyeballs back in the head.

  waiting

  Edited by - waiting on 16 October 2002 14:8:0
• 

  Valis

  Waiting..that was something Englishman wrote on the previous page of this thread. I'm not being judgmental at all....I merely want answers to the questions I posed early on. Not too much to ask...

  Is Bill great or what?

  Sincerely,

  District Overbeer
• 

  hawkaw

  I have been looking at this quite a bit and trying to make sure I at least get my points across. I don't know if I have or have not so here goes .....

  Based on what has been said I believe Bill Bowen stepped in it ... big time. I have done the same. Others have too and I expected Bill to do the honourable thing with Ray.

  TeeJay does make a valid point in that he want a heart felt apology for what has happened. I agree with TeeJay on the issue.

  TeeJay has suggested that maybe Mr. Bowen's apology to H_S wasn't all that it was cracked up to be. H_S said it was but others have now told me H_S is a "gentleman". So now I don't know TeeJay - I think I will have to take back what I said to you and I apologize to you. I hope you can accept it.

  Jim suggested Bill and Ray talked again and things went well. I moved on thinking Bill and Ray had worked it out. But now as Jim points out .... I just don't know. I read over those same comments as Jim did and ..... it just doesn't sit well with me.

  "og" I think gave me an understanding why Bill should also do an apology to the board. I thought "og" made an excellent point.

  Quite frankly there are a lot of people angry over the whole affair. In my mind the optics suck and goals are definitely not being met.

  All in all I think something like what Englishman has stated might work but Bill has to do it in his own words both to people on and off this board publically and privately. One thing is for sure his credibility has been shot all to hell as I said before and he has a lot of work to do to rectify it.

  Oddly enough, when Bill makes a statement to this board after his return, I will look for TeeJay's response to it. Hope you don't mind.

  hawk
• 

  Pathofthorns

  Hi Amazing..

  Thanks for stating so clearly and rationally what many of us feel. I realize the point continues to be beaten to death, but I think things would have blown over reasonably well had an unreserved apology been issued much sooner. You can't blame people for being confused and concerned when the matter has never really been put to rest by means of honest explanations and apologies.

  I believe the time has passed for any further apology because it will have been issued out of necessity instead of out of true regret. Sometimes an apology where you simply state I was an idiot and I lost my mind is the only thing that will do. But once you let the opportunity for an apology pass you by, this is rarely an effective option any more.

  And if people can't forgive and forget what you did, hopefully they can respect that you were man enough to admit what you did and that you accept full responsiblity and reprocussions from the people you hurt. This is probably why we are such a sensitive lot because as JW's we saw so much hurt caused by men who would beg off from accepting responsibility for their crimes.

  I think the Silentlambs group will have to suffer a period of time where they will have to work to get back the trust of many persons. Hopefully a new spokesperson steps up to the plate while at the same time the whole organization shifts in appearance and presentation from being a product of Bill Bowen to an entity that simply cares about helping abused persons. Assisting victims to gain victories against the WT will certainly help get it back on it's feet again and gain lost respect and confidence.

  I just think there are valuable lessons that hopefully have been learned. Sometimes I wonder if we condemn the WT critically beyond reason we will inadvertantly condemn ourselves. Human nature often leads us down the same predictable paths.

  Path

  Edited by - pathofthorns on 16 October 2002 14:56:19
• 

  Sam Beli

  Maybe this thread should be titled "Crucify in Abstensia."