Help a lurking dub with doubts

by undercover 64 Replies latest watchtower scandals

  • Farkel
    Farkel

    : I'm trying to come to grips with the conspiracy theory. Maybe I wasn't so clear in my first post. : Are they sincere in thinking they speak for God,

    As a whole, yes. They've been saying they speak for God for so many decades that they've convinced themselves it is true. No believer is allowed to challenge their authority, so they continue to exercise it any way they choose.

    : or are they intentionally misleading people?

    Also, yes. When one is convinced that one speaks for God and one is also convinced that God wants them to intentionally mislead people, one will do it.

    : I know they say they are God's channel, but is it a ruse or are they delusional?

    Anyone who claims they are God's sole spokesman to mankind and has screwed up 100% in prophetic interpretation and flip-flopped on dozens of doctrines and policies is definitely delusional. Anyone who believes it is ok to let people needlessly die because they believe a symbol of life is more important than a life itself is not only delusional, but certifiably insane.

    Farkel

  • breeze
    breeze

    TO: detective.....

    Detective says: Breeze, the site indicates that all those who are interested can join in. Nowhere does it indicate that you must have been a witness to be here. I haven't read a "worldly" post yet that indicated that the poster knew exactly what it was like to walk in JW shoes.

    I was just warning the lurking dub that this site has people that would have you believe that they speak from experience about being a JW, but have never been to a meeting. There are some here that I have read that will try to seem JW like but aren't.

    I have no problem with any one being on this site....after all this site is view by free countries and those not free, so anything goes I guess.....??

    This a great forum and I enjoy reading most of the comments?

    BREEZE

  • Marilyn
    Marilyn

    Great question: Are they really that smart? You have to remember that JW are not alone. Plenty of other cults, sects and religions operate in a similar way. Pyramid selling works like the WTS e.g. Amway (only there are no rewards with the WTS just promised rewards). Also communism, especially at the time of the Cultural Revolution in China was very like the WTS of today. I'm no academic but it seems that we (mankind) have a great ability for self delusion.

    I don't think they know they are wrong. They have slowly evolved into the mess they are today. If you look at it closely it's a sham from woe to go. But its addictive power is formidable. Unlike you, I can find nothing right about them at all. Yet when I talk to JWs I can see how their mind takes them down certain channels where it all comes out looking right to them.

    Also people with a religious addiction don't process information in the same way as normal people do. They start with the premiss of sole truth and work backwards. We start with the information and work forwards. Different end result.

    Big welcome. Your mind will be valuable here.

    Marilyn

  • Beck_Melbourne
    Beck_Melbourne

    Welcome to the board Undercover!

    Is there anyone else that had the same thoughts that I have now?

    I had my doubts but I wasn't sure until I read the COC Book by Ray Franz...before that my eyes were wide shut!

    What convinced you to believe as you do now?

    This discussion board helped me learn the truth about the truth. I learnt that I was not wicked after all, I was just one ordinary person born into a cult that had me convinced I was going to die for being just an ordinary person. I met other ordinary people with the exact same experiences...it was good to know that I wasn't a freak!

    Are some of you still active, afraid to commit and comment outloud because of the possibility of losing all former ties to friends and relatives?

    I believe some here are active, some are also inactive, and some are DF or DA. No matter which category we come under, many of us have JW relatives that we don't want to hurt, and so we disguise our identities for their protection.

    Is that not as hypocritical as some say the GB is?

    No. The GB claim to represent Jehovah. We do not. Having our eyes opened, and then choosing to remain anonymous is not hypocritical...it is in my opinion the most sensible thing to do. When I wrote to DA myself...I did so as I decided I did not want to be a hypocrite. I was very proud of myself for doing this, as I felt that it was the right thing to do out of respect for Jehovah's organisation. I lost my jw family and friends as a consequence...but at that time, I believed this was the right and honourable thing to do. I also looked down my nose at the hypocrites in the Kingdom Hall who were doing worse things then me and yet they could still mingle with the friends and their jw family members...yet here I was on the outter. I now have a different view of Jehovah's organisation and the respect I gave it was undeserved.

    Do I jump on the bandwagon of saying the Society is full of mistakes just so I can be part of the World?

    If you want to, but what would be your point?? If you want to be part of the world, then just be part of the world...and enjoy!!

    ~Beck~

  • Buster
    Buster

    You're already there - congratulations.

    I would absolutley recomend the Franz and the Jonsson books. But I'll tell you what, when you read those, you may find yourself with a bit of a mental block, fearing that you are consorting with apostates. I found this particularly interesting: read some non-witness (and I don't mean anti-witness) bible commentary. Pick some of Paul's letters and sit and try to get ahold of why he was writing this letter. What was his overall import. It won't take long before you feel the difference from the JW jigsaw approach of a scripture snippet here as a lesser fullfillment of this part of a verse there. You're whole approach to the bible will change. You'll start to get a sense of mesasge to you from Christ and you'll shed the dictatorship of the WTBTS.

    Somebody say amen ...

  • ashling
    ashling

    Welcome Undercover! Just my two cents....Do you realize the courage you have to post here? I had a computer for nearly FOUR years before I even entertained the notion. And exploring was the BEST. Your gut instincts are correct...and you don't need anyone's words to validate your curiosity or doubts. I haven't checked out any of the 'classic' anti-witness expose' texts, nor do I care to at this point. I KNOW WHAT I KNOW. And that gut instinct I have always had, even when it was a tiny, quiet little voice at night, was RIGHT. And you are too: RIGHT to exercise your RIGHT to listen to your tiny, quiet voice. You deserve a hug...so here's a hug {{{Undercover}}}.

  • undercover
    undercover

    Just wanted to say thanks again for all the responses. I see that my feelings are pretty much the norm while trying to get my brain to get a handle on this overload of information. I'm not posting a lot, but I am reading as much as I can. Thanks again.

    I remember the last WT study I was at and actually paying attention to what I was reading and what was being commented on(for years I zombied out at the WT study). I don't remember the exact point that the paragraph was trying to make except that it started out by quoting the bible, actually quoting scriptures and citing all the scriptures that applied to make a point. The very next sentence contradicted itself and the bible by saying that while this point was true it was pointless if we did not do whatever the magazine then said. No quotes, no cited scriptures, just what the writer was telling us. I wish I could remember exactly what it was about. I saw with open eyes the contracdiction and the manipulation by this tactic. I'm in a room with over a hundred other people and nobody else noticed it(or if they did, they were keeping quiet, like me). So I think I am slowly starting to deprogram. I can think for myself. I see fault with what is written.

    I ran into a friend the other day. An elder from another congregation. He is a great guy. One of the good elders. He did not chastise me for missing meetings or becoming inactive. We just chatted about people and places and old memories. It's the good guys like him that I miss and I wondered just a little, "What if I'm wrong?" If the whole society was made up of people like him, it probably would be more like true Christianity. It's like the post I saw the other day. Three steps forward, one step back. Right now, today, I'm moving forward.

  • BornFree
    BornFree

    Hi Undercover,

    First of all, sorry for the long post. I wanted to make sure I hit as many of your questions as possible.

    Wow. It sounds like you are seeing some of the sad realities of the Watchtower. It sounds like you have many family members and friends in the organization, and if you leave you will experience extreme isolation and pain. For that I am sorry.

    I personally am a Conservative Christian and have never been a JW, but I have friends who are JW's. I've read alot, talked to some Ministerial Servants and Elders, etc.

    After coming under fire from all of them, and digging through the muck that they tried to drag me through for questioning, I have some words that may help you out.

    for your first series of questions beginning with, "does the GB really believe they are God's human channel for all of mankind to learn about his kingdom", I would say the answer is two, or even three-fold. Some of them I guess, yes do believe that they are the only channel of communication between God and the rest of humanity.

    Others believe that they are absolutely NOT that channel, but are too deeply entrenched in the organization that they just can't leave. Keep in mind that most GB members are past 70 years of age (some even over 90 years of age!) and have no where else to go. They have spent so many years in the organization, it's been their whole life.

    And finally I think some know that it is not the truth, but enjoy the political power too much to leave it. What Randy says (he's the one that runs www.freeminds.org, and lived at Bethel for several years) is that most of the GB members were, for the most part, honest men, but enjoyed playing the political games. Mr. Franz seems to somewhat agree in his book, "Crisis of Conscience".

    The GB members obviously do enjoy the power that they experience. Think about the possibilities: if the GB makes a decision, millions of lives will be affected by it. And those millions of people have no choice but to follow suit, lest they be disfellowshipped. Then if the GB comes under fire for it, all they have to say is that their decision was based on the actions of the Holy Spirit, so they have no accountabilty nor responsibility. It's a perfect power setup!!

    In my discussions with a Ministerial Servant, I found that in the past few years the org. has undergone a re-organization, shifting some duties from the GB to other groups. I got the feeling that this was an effort to make the GB even more secrative, and out of the the view of the public,and the rest of the "flock". I'm not sure if that rings a bell with you, or if you heard of any kind of a re-organization. That's just what he was telling me.

    Next you asked, "The thing about committing yourself to the fact that the WTBS may not be God's organization is if they are not, then who is? Or is there an earthly organiztion at all?"

    There actually is no single earthly organization. If you read the scriptures without the Watchtower's influence, you will find that Jesus Christ did not come to start a new religion or organization. He came to spread the Gospel, or "Good News". You will notice that the Pharasees were the leaders of organized religion, and Jesus did not have kind words for them. Now obviously we are going to have organized religion to some degree. Organized religion in itself is not necessarily, inherently, bad. It is just limited in what good it can accomplish. The best thing that organized religion can do is help people get connected in community with eachother, and to provide some gentle shepharding. Organized religion goes bad when it tells you to put the organization ahead of your 1-on-1 relationship with GOD and people, and begins to manipulate.

    There is this term in the JW community, "...in good standing". What does that mean? It refers to your status in the organization. It means that if you are in "good standing" the organization sees you as being "good", and a healthy influence. The confusion here is that they are equating the way the organzation views you as being the same way that GOD views you. To the contrary, "Judgement is mine," says the Lord. An earthly, human organization is wrong by judging you this way. Now Paul did say that members could be told to leave the congregation if wrong doing continued, but this was meant for extreme, gross, unrepentant sin. This is vastly different than the way the WT handles it's discipline. But to answer your question, the entire Bible was written to ALL people, and the Holy Spirit can speak to ANYONE, not just the handful of the 144,000. So when it comes to there being an earthly organization, the WT tells you there is only one. This is clearly a false statement. "But the CounselOr, the Holy Spirit, whom the Father will send in my name, will teach you all things and will remind you of everything I have said to you." John 14:26. Because of this there is no need for a single earthly organization.

    You are correct in believing that religion can be a snare. The Bible also has harsh words to say about people who mislead in teaching: "Not many of you should presume to be teachers, my brothers, because you know that we who teach will be judged more strictly" James 3:1.

    Your next question, "Are they really that smart? Are they trying to control our very thinking? Or is just because of being no different than the rest of us... and there is more than one man's thoughts going into the writing, that things just get muddled up?" They are trying to control people's thinking. Notice the way they discipline. If you disagree with anything you are taught, you will be "marked", or worse, disfellowshipped. The way I had my first encounter with JWs was due to my dating a girl who was a JW. WOW!! She came under extreme pressure. Her family got incredibly upset with her and began the shunning process. Her elders were calling her every day telling her to STOP seeing me, her parents would not talk to her, and she lost privaledges in the congregation. All because she went on a few dates with a non-JW! In essence, they were telling her that if she did not conform to the way they thought life ought to be, she could not participate. This is control. She had to live and think exactly the way they wanted her to, lest she be disfellowshipped. If this is not mind control, I don't know what is.

    Your next question, "...Is it because I'm lazy and don't wanna get dressed up 4 days a week, go to meetings, knock on doors or is it because my mind has been released from some control that was on it?" I can tell you what I think about this, but you have to think for yourself and answer this question on your own. I have met a few other people who have been able to leave the Watchtower, and they have felt the same way you are feeling. As it turned out, they felt free because they were no longer forced to do things they didn't want to do. This is another control tactic. As a JW you are required to go door-to-door, etc. or else they tell you that you are not a good example. Since you have been moving away from that control, you are naturally going to feel good.

    Next you asked, "Some of the teachings are correct and have opened the door to people learning about the Bible, while others seem to be contrived, relying on old opinions and dogma. Am I being picky about things that will eventually get straightened out, or am I correct in sensing that something is very wrong?" You are absolutely correct in sesing that something is wrong...drastically wrong. If you look through WT history, you will notice that doctrine after doctrine have changed, sometimes changed so much that they contradict what was taught previously. You are not being picky about things that will be straightened out later. Things will not be straightened out later by the WT. You are beginning to think, beginning to see that there is something that has gone awry. At this point you might even be feeling guilty for having these ideas. That seems to be pretty normal for someone who is thinking about such things. Don't let the guilt get the best of you!! This is the first step in becoming free. The Bible tells us to question and test everything: "Test everything. Hold on to the good." 1 Thessalonians 5:21. In asking the questions you are asking, you are staying true to the Bible's teaching by testing everything. Now contrary to what you have been taught, you can have communication with the Holy Spirit. Try it. Test it. Ask GOD for guideance apart from the Watchtower Society, and HE will lead you! I PROMISE!!

    Next, "What convinced you to believe as you do now?" As I said earlier, I have never been a JW. But let's look at what faith and religion is for. Why do we believe what we believe? Do we believe out of fear? Do we believe what we do because we enjoy it and find peace in it? What would you prefer? I am a Christian because I have found peace and joy in Christ. What I have seen is that a lot of JWs believe what the Watchtower teaches them because they are afraid. The WT states that unless you conform preciesely to each of their doctrines, you will be shunned by your family and frineds, and be completely eliminated at the end. WOW!! That's motivation by fear! But let's look at it this way. If Jesus Christ is who he says he is, you can live with a state of CONFIDENCE, PEACE, JOY, and LOVE! Read some of the things that Paul wrote:

    Romans 5:1
    Romans 12:12
    Romans 15:13
    2 Corinthians 1:24
    2 Corinthians 2:3
    2 Corinthians 7:4
    Galatians 5:22

    Just to mention a few!

    "...Is that not as hypocritical as some say the GB is?" It is not hypocritical to be afraid of mentioning the questions and concerns you have. After all, you have a lot at stake. But at the same time, don't let any feelings of guilt get the best of you. Test everything without a sense of guilt.

    Now some of what I have said might seem like Christian propaganda. But please understand that I am doing my best to sound sincere and lend a helping hand. You are obviously free to believe whatever you want to believe. Conservative Christianity has been dealt a lot of black eyes due to christians being dogmatic and sounding plastic. What I'm trying to do here, Undercover, is lend a helping hand and describe a way of life which is free from guilt, free from fear, and free from control of an organization. Ofcorse any step you take you are going to feel wary and uncomfortable. Take your time, and let GOD lead you. After all, GOD is MUCH BIGGER and all-encompassing than the Watchtower says he is.

    If you want to discuss anything further, or just want an ear, feel free to email me: [email protected]

    GOD Bless!!

    ~BornFree~

  • NewChapter
    NewChapter

    So Undercover posted an expressive recount of a dream he had. He mentioned that he usually doesn't get personal here, and I thought, that's very true. I know nothing about Undercover or who he was before the snickering dog. I just always enjoyed his sharp wit and beautiful little gems he finds in the pics he posts. But the dream made me want to know more, so I found his first post. 9 years ago and 13,000 posts. I'd just like to say:

    WOW Undercover. This is amazing, and you are proof to those that are struggling with their first post and their insecurities, that one day they will handle this all with humor and that time does move on and we can find our real selves.

    I hope you don't mind that I resurrected this. I just found it very touching and helpful.

    NC

  • NewChapter
    NewChapter

    Letters and Numbers---Royalty of the Links---this thread is 9 years old. Trust me, UC has moved wayyyyyyyy beyond your manipulative reach. So sorry---your nearly a decade too late. You should talk to Jehovah about that.

    And shame on you for playing on perceived insecurities to try and snag someone back in the cult. Shame on you for playing fears. Did you ever ask yourself why you get so excited about a person who is struggling and think they will be open to your poison? It's because they are having a weak moment, because there is no way you would snag someone with their full thinking abilities. You sit around, like a vulture, waiting for someone to show some weakness, and then you swoop in.

    I remember how it used to go. Keep knocking, because even if a person has rejected the message for years, something may have changed in their life and their hearts will be open. HOW? Oh sickness, death, family troubles, economic problems, discouragement, depression---------NEVER happiness, contentment, joy---nope you are looking for people that are down in some way. Don't you find that absolutely disgusting? Taking advantage that way?

    I really hope Undercover catches this. I will have fun laughing at his retort and most excellent graphic.

    NC

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