In there no good in the WTBTS??? or ourselves?? (page 3)

waiting

Along with TR, I just read this entire thread - and want to thank all the participants.

Imho, this is a prime example of discussion at it's finest. Thank you.

waiting

Farkel

: I'm only suggesting that God has always used flawed men and flawed organizations. How can we totally dismiss this one because we have discovered it is flawed?

I can't recall where God ever used flawed me to do flawed things. I can recall JWs ever making the statement that flawed Bibled prophets gave flawed prophecies. I can't recall JWs ever showing any evidence that God "used" flawed people in the Bible to make laws and flawed policies. One of the problems with the JW leadership is that they demand all the reverence and respect of men who are directly being used by God, but without any of the responsibilities and accountability that goes with it.

As for God "always" using organizations, that is simply not the case. In fact, I have yet to see ONE example from the Bible where God dealt his will through an organization. It was always through individuals. Despite all the rubbish Chuck Russell, Joe Rutherford and Fred Franz said about "classes", and "organizations," Noah was an individual. So was Moses, and all the prophets including Jesus. Paul was an individual. God ALWAYS communicated to his people through individual people, and not organizations. The word doesn't even appear anywhere in the Bible. Lest you think the so-called "Governing Body" in Jerusalem in the first Century was an "organization," I suggest you re-read the account again. They were anything BUT! An individual named Paul went there to straighten THEM out!

I know that as a JW you hear the term "organization" so much it makes your mind numb, but when you actually sit back and look at the truth, it is just more deceit from Brooklyn used to justify their existence.

Farkel

normie67

js2law......interesting post. I thought I might respond to it. I feel EXACTLY as you do.How can you totally reject the Org when it tries to to spread the Good News!!! Yes the Good News IS different today. In the First Century the "Kingdom was in their midst" i.e Jesus. But today the Kingdom is Established in 1914!!! Thats our message to people!!!
Its interesting that nobody but nobody discusses the future of the Earth!! That was God's original purpose, Right?, for man to live forever on Earth??? Despite wrong understandings in the Past the Org continues the Preaching work WORLDWIDE......The same message WORLDWIDE!!!!! That and the WORLDWIDE Brotherhood and the Unity diplayed is the Positives that keep me in the Org, despite numerous doubts!!
js2law I think you will this site interesting and the people nice...I know I have!
Farkel, always love your perspective on things(if your the same Farkel from old H2O)....just curious you mentioned that Jehovah hasn't used an Organization???? What about the Nation of Israel, Ist Century Christians and their numerous Congs??? Just curious!

normie

JT

normie67 says:

Despite wrong understandings in the Past the Org continues the Preaching work WORLDWIDE......The same message WORLDWIDE!!!!!
********

did you notice he says IN THE PAST, well this is the problem,each time they change a dogma it is in the past- what jw never realize is that in the PRESENT they are teaching dogmas that are wrong

for yrs many have clearly pointed out dogmas that jw believed were supported by the bible yet they turned out to be no more than the OPINION of the Boys in Writing- and with the passing of time N67 will see more of his dogmas that he was told were based on the bible be revealed to be no more than guesses and opinions

how sad for him

just my 2cnets

james

LDH

Actually, Normie, when you mention Isreal and 1st century Christians, you're comparing apples to oranges.

1. If we believe the account of the Bible, the only reason Isreal was God's chosen people was because of a promise made to Abraham. The Bible refers to Abraham as a 'friend' of God's. As soon as that promise was fulfilled, there was no longer room for any 'chosen people' (Acts 10:34)

2. Nowhere in the Christian Greek Scriptures do we see a command by our Lord and Saviour, Jesus Christ, to form exclusive groups known as 'congregations.' No that piece of brilliance was again, courtesy of Paul, who had his own idea about how Christians should be organized.

Now, if God always uses an organization who was he using PRIOR to the existence of CTR & the WBTS?

normie67

James,
The way I understand it, the Org never claimed infallibility(Spelling?). This is the understanding as we know it now. I know thats a weak case and I don't fully agree with it.If there are "New Understandings" or changes they make them. I personally have a hard time with the New Light and the light gets brighter. If we are under the direction of our Master Worker wouldn't he give us the proper understanding the First time???

normie

normie67

LDH
Jesus mentions in his Illustration of the Wheat and the Weeds in Matt 13:24-30, that a time would lapse when the wheat and weeds would be unidentifiable and would not be sorted out until the harvest. Initially in the beginning when they were sown (1st Century) Apostatsy set in and weeds were sown in with the wheat. Today in the Harvest the seperating work is going on. With the Wheat being identified. Thats the way the Org explains that nobody between the 1st Century and today would be indentified as the True Org.
Thats just my understanding of how the Org teaches that point. Also how can you dismiss the Org that the 1st Century Christians!! I meant to say organized fashion they had...i.e..established Congs and a Governing Body???

normie

Tina

Normie,
What evidence do you have that there was a 1st century 'organization?' Can you present it please?
Thanks,Tina

Norm

Hi Normie67,

The WTS do not preach the GOOD NEWS! What they preach sin't good news to anyone. Read all about it here:

http://home.c2i.net/norman/Incredib.htm

Now tell me what you think is "good" about it. I bet your are not going to do that.

Norm.

jst2laws

I can find little to object to in all your comments. I especially liked the thought from JT that we started out good and got off with our own self importance. And Achristian has made good points about the Kingdom News. Our version of the message seemed to facilitate our desire to rule peoples lives.

But who else among major religious organizations taught us to take a stand against participation in the worlds carnage such as world war. Is this not good. And anywhere you travel in the world Jw’s have friends they can trust. Sometime perhaps we can have a discussion on some of the good points on which we stand out.(Normie mentioned a few)

As was brought out, what does the overwhelming evidence leave us to conclude. This is the best opportunity in human history to examine all the facts in a worldwide forum. Most here are well prepared to present the side of the issue that most JW’s never get, are forbidden to discover. That fact alone is an argument against the org. That has to got to change. But I fear some of us may have swung too far the other way and have forgotten some clear and simple teachings that attracted us in the first place. Is it not true that more of you than Normie wish we could change the leadership or else take the good out, some teachings and the good people, and we could all be part of that international Christian Congregation without the harshness, mind control and intolerance?

Jst2laws

Normie, Thanks for the support. I really felt alone here. Hang on. And please don’t get discouraged if you notice I have strong doubts about 1914 and our understanding of the Kingdom. But we agree we have something here to stay with and hoping for change.

In there no good in the WTBTS??? or ourselves??

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