In there no good in the WTBTS??? or ourselves??

by jst2laws 102 Replies latest jw friends

  • Norm
    Norm

    Hi Again,

    You said:

    We hopefully all agree it is wrong to reject an entire race because we have found one of its member to be flawed, or to reject an entire concept an the basis of finding a flaw in its argument. Would not fair people look for a way to accept the good in the concept, modify the flawed portion and rejoice in what was gained from the refined concept? It would also be wrong, as the WT does, to reject an entire institution because some of its precepts are flawed.
    Of course we agree on that, although many Jehovah's Witnesses reject people’s careful documented information based on a single typo. Many Americans will disregard a whole book if it contains one four-letter word.

    So would it be wrong to accept the fact that the WTS, despite its flaws, has many good scriptural truths to share. Can we reject what they have pressed to the world: God has a name, His Kingdom is to solve man’s problems, the Earth is to become a paradise as God purposed, man will live endlessly on Earth as intended, those who died will return in a resurrection of the dead rather that burn in hell, and this good news is to be preached in all the earth. With all its flaws, no one else is doing this internationally, staying out of politics and wars in each nation, except Jehovah’s Witnesses.

    I certainly can’t think of one single good thing the Watchtower Society has to share. I must also object to your use of the word truth. This word seems to have lost all meaning to most of those who use it all the time. Religious people usually BELIEVE in things. The reason why you believe something is because you have no evidence; no proof for it. If you had, you would KNOW, if you know it you wouldn’t have to believe, right? To use the word truth about something that you believe is of course neither here nor there, it doesn’t qualify as such by any standard. The Watchtower Society can of course tell people what they believe, but there are, as you know several millions that believe differently. How much more healthy things could be if religious people showed a little more humility and try to understand that after all they only believe. The Watchtower Society have their slant on the Bible others have a different one. Somehow many of these different denominations including the Watchtower Society tell us that if we don’t subscribe to their particular brand of faith, their “loving” God will exterminate us.
    Some of those believers didn’t even wait for their God to do the killing, but did it themselves. Those who didn’t accept their particular idea, was deemed unworthy to live, all based on some totally ridiculous idea about “truth”.

    Don’t you understand that when you go to people and tell them that God has a name, that he will soon establish a kingdom that will solve all problems, this is something you believe? If you were born in Saudi Arabia, India or Japan, you would believe something entirely different, and it would still be something you just believe, something you don’t know! People have heated debates over the nature of a God, whether there is a trinity or not and some even tell us that it is a matter of life and dead what totally abstract ideas we have in our heads about the trinity of not. First of all no one knows if God exist in the first place, let alone his nature, it is just something you believe. What makes the Watchtower Society fantasies better or more “true” than others? There are millions of Christians that do not believe in hell, I even know a Bishop that believes in a paradise earth.
    How do you know what other Christians and denominations believe of preach?

    You probably understand how ridiculous it would be if you quote a Watchtower or a Catholic publication and then proceed to tell people that what it say is the truth, and someone ask you, how do you know it is the truth? You reply, because the Watchtower, or this and that book say so. The same of curse go for the Bible, how do you know that what the Bible say is true or have anything to do with God? Will your answer be, because the Bible says so? In case that is your answer, will you say it is a good and satisfactory answer? I wish people would stop throwing the word “truth” around so much. Truth is much more than believing in old Hebrew tales of superstition.

    We may not fully understand what the kingdom is, may use God’s name to the extent we rob it of some due dignity, have pushed for holiness and righteousness and obedience to the point of overlooking faith in the ransom as the means to true righteousness, and most of all the leadership have become obsessed with their presumption of speaking for God. I’m embarrassed, but I step back and still see a people God it using, at least as a dragnet. (mat. 13:47-50) Who else is teaching so many of the basic truths World Wide? You don’t have to write and tell me they are all serving for the wrong motives and they are all indoctrinated. These problems exit but this is not so of all or I would not be here and you would not be sharpening your pencils to refute me.

    Jst2laws

    How can anyone understand belief, faith? How does anyone know if there is a God, let alone if this god has a name? Oh yes, you believe it, but that doesn’t make it so. Have you for example ever sat down and really thought through what you call the “ransom” really is? Can you explain to me how that concept makes any sense? Try to read this excellent write-up on the question of the ransom and tell us what you think: http://www.geocities.com/osarsif/ransom.htm There is a whole lot of information to consider outside the Watchtower Society, there is a whole lot of thinking to do, take your time. It takes years to clear up the entire cobweb spun by years of endless repetitions from the meetings and assemblies, where the most insane and ludicrous ideas have been drummed into your head.
    Years later you are going to shake your head and feel ashamed, as many of us have done, for buying all that nonsense.

    Take care,

    Norm.

  • JanH
    JanH
    So would it be wrong to accept the fact that the WTS, despite its flaws, has many good scriptural truths to share.

    Yes, that would be wrong. The WTS has no truths, scriptural or otherwise, to share.

    Can we reject what they have pressed to the world: God has a name,
    Various gods have zillion names. Yahweh is the name for an old Semitic tribal god. Another name for the same god, carefully hidden in modern transklations, is El, the Semitic sky god. Another name was Ba'al, which we see (again hidden by modern translators) frequently used in the most ancient parts of the old testament.

    The interesting thing is that a name for a deity implies polytheism in some form. If there is only one god, as xtians are suppoed to believe, a personal name for this one god ceases to be a topic of interest.

    And it's certainly a fact that there is not a shred of evidence that Jesus, Paul nor any Christian in the first century ever used any personal name for God. The "Yahweh" name was long discarded in monotheistic Judaism, and the Christians did nothing to reintoduce it.

    His Kingdom is to solve man’s problems,
    If man's problems is to be solved, man has to do that. It's ludicruous, after around half a million years of human history, most of which the population has lived as animals, people start proclaiming some supernatural being will drop down from heaven to help is. Is not gonna happen.

    the Earth is to become a paradise as God purposed,
    Fantasy.

    man will live endlessly on Earth as intended,
    Let's be serious. Death is an integral part of life on this planet. Predators and prey have always existed, as long as there was life. As the intelligent author of Ecclesiastes said, there is no difference between humans and (other) animals when we die. When we're gone, we're gone, and the sooner people realize that, the sooner they can get on with the life they have.

    those who died will return in a resurrection of the dead rather that burn in hell,
    Neither, of course.

    But since you discuss scriptural: it's a fact that the New Testament teaches that God will torture non-believers in a fiery hell eternally. The JWs and other conditionalists surely have their heart in the raight place, but the explaining-away of certain Bible verses is just pathetic. Surely Jesus, if we are to believe Matthew, taught that the evil would be tortured in hell. And the Revelation is most explicit. The acrobatics the WTS has to engage in to cover up this fact is simply a form of intellectual dishonesty.

    and this good news is to be preached in all the earth.
    It's not good, and it's a long time ago any of this was news.

    - Jan

  • aChristian
    aChristian

    Ozzie,

    Thanks for your kind words. I always enjoy reading your posts.

    Mike

  • dark clouds
    dark clouds

    js2law:

    based only on your first paragraph:

    "We hopefully all agree it is wrong to reject an entire race because we have found one of its member to be flawed. . ."
    -----true, rejection of an entire race would constitute a generalization, which would lead to prejudice. i dont hate all germans because of hitler, in fact i dont hate hitler the man, but his actions are disgusting. I dont hate the WT but its actions are gross.

    "or to reject an entire concept an the basis of finding a flaw in its argument. . ."
    -----havent we as a culture found a flaw in the concept of communism after giving it a chance? again dictatorship and hitler. just to reiterate dictatorship and the GB.

    "Would not fair people look for a way to accept the good in the concept. . ."
    -----Buddhism holds many fabulous concepts, would a witness be fair and look for a way to accept the good in those concepts?

    "modify the flawed portion and rejoice in what was gained from the refined concept? . . ."
    -----This would never happen in the borg unless there was a 2/3 majority from the GB. and the only modifications that they adjust are their flaws in dogma, doctrine, and dates that never come true.

    "It would also be wrong, as the WT does, to reject an entire institution because some of its precepts are flawed. . ."
    -----but it is required of its members to accept such a stance without their ability to express a different point of view?!

    Freud, i believe once said, that when it comes to justification we are geniuses, i guess the old guys of the GB arent really senile, just graced with a tad of genius, a shame that it isnt used to the benefit of all.

    in this paragraph alone you have made a case against the WT by stating that they are not fair, why would you want to side with that?!

    Amazed
    CHUCK

  • jst2laws
    jst2laws

    You were all much kinder than I expected. Let me try to address the points you made that stand out. I'm overwhelmed with your comments so please do not be hurt if I do not specifically reply to yours.
    First, I agree with almost everything said above.
    Yes the meetings are boring and the brothers keep repeating those religious platitudes. Yes, we are arrogant and self-righteous. Yes, we have been so wrong on so many subjects.
    But the first 15 years of the Christian Congregation also had problems of bigotry, and false teachings. The attempt to resolve them in 49 CE resulted in some good but the Judaizers still subverted the faith of many for years after. It only got worse until less than a century and the congregation was corrupted. But it was still the congregation God used to spread the Good News.

    I'm only suggesting that God has always used flawed men and flawed organizations. How can we totally dismiss this one because we have discovered it is flawed?

    jst2laws

    Edited by - jst2laws on 24 March 2001 0:15:43

  • aChristian
    aChristian

    : But it was still the congregation God used to spread the Good News.
    I'm only suggesting that God has always used flawed men and flawed organizations. How can we totally dismiss this one because we have discovered it is flawed?

    Because, as I pointed out earlier, JWs are not spreading the good news. They are spreading a message they call "the good news" which is totally different than the good news preached by the apostles. And the apostle Paul told us in Galatians 1:8, 9 that "Even if we or an angel from heaven should preach to you a gospel (good news) other than the one we preached to you, let him be eternally condemned!"

  • Carmel
    Carmel

    2laws,

    Have you ever experianced a court-room drama where the prosecuting attorney makes the opening case against the defendent and when he/she is through, you are absolutely convinced the defendent is guilty?
    The number of witnesses, the mass of circumstancial evidence, even human testimony piles up to where you don't even have to hear the defense because it's all over with? Think about it! This is exactually where you are in your life. The claims and evidence are so strong for the conclusions you have drawn from the skillfully crafted propaganda machine called WTBTS that you need not even listen or look at any other paradigm or conflicting testimony.

    Wouldn't our court systems be a joke if only the police and the prosecuting side were the only ones to have their case presented before the jury made its deliberations? This is what you suggest in your affirmation that "no one else out there is doing it"!

    Permit me to share with you that many of us have moved out of that mindset and have weighed the evidence and found that what the WTBTS claims to be the "truth" is only one jaded and narrow perspective of reality. It has to use many types of control mechanisms to prevent its members from weighing the evidence. I need not go on about the details.

    I urge you to look at the evidence from a fair and objective perspective and admit that you have chosen to a) limit your terms of reference to the bible, and b) to the party line that is drummed into you by the WBTS.

    Best regards,

    Carmel

  • JT
    JT

    Just2laws says:

    ##########I'm only suggesting that God has always used flawed men and flawed organizations. How can we totally dismiss this one because we have discovered it is flawed?##############################

    Now on the surface his points in my view are well taken, but this is the little problem he fails to address- the main reason that many of us have such strong views about the wt is not due to its errors/mistakes etc o no for many of us including myself firmly believe that wt started off ok by doing basic bible commentary- but the problem has arisen due to the wt SHIFTING from merely students of the WORD to God Headspokesman in charge down here on earth

    Now the following quote I got from TR highlites the reason that we reject the wt so strongly THEY OPERATE with A DOUBLE STANDARD

    ONE FOR THEM AND ONE FOR THE REST

    Now J2L I rarely argue with jw nowadays- I find it too many times a waste of time, but I do enjoy sharing WT double standard with NONJW for they quickly see the double standard and how it rules out all their claims of some SPECIAL CONNECTION to God that other faiths don't have

    The following are just a sample of the 1000's of flipflops of wt

    Just my 2 cents

    James

    ##########################################

    False prophecy
    "It is not persecution for an informed person to expose a certain religion as being false." (WT 11/15/1963 p. 688)
    "Similarly, the 'false prophet' is not a person, but is a system or an organization." (WT 6/15/1974 p. 381)
    Flip-Flopping
    "At times explanations given by Jehovah's visible organization have shown adjustments, seemingly to previous points of view. But this has not actually been the case...'Tacking' into the wind..."(WT12/1/1981 p. 27)
    vs.
    "Christians cannot be wishy-washy, going back to the same teachings they had rejected earlier." (WT 5/15/1976 p. 298)

    Examination of Beliefs
    If you find a lie, forsake it regardless of who teaches it; it is your duty to God. (RICHES p. 178)
    If you have been in an organization that teaches things contrary to God's Word, forsake it. (RICHES p. 179)
    vs.
    Do not criticize the organization. If Jehovah permits it, who are we to insist it should be different? (WT 5/1/1957 p.284)
    TR

  • dark clouds
    dark clouds

    J2L:

    I guess talking to a JW is bringing back memories. I remember when the subject of Harmagedon would arise, there was an analogy that was thrown in to justify the children who would die, it went something like, when you set a mouse trap do you only kill the parents and let the baby mice go on living?

    How does this relate? "you said how do we dismiss this one because we have discovered it is flawed". would you dismiss a baby mouse because of its age? if it is still a mouse, it is still a flaw, or are witness flaws less flawed than worldly flaws. I'll take an explanation if so.

    Also for many years the WT has warned to get out of false religion, it seems that since the WT is equally flawed, it has placed itself on the same pedestal with all the other religions she has claimed to be flawed. Perhaps this is an unconscious warning from within for those who have ears to listen, perhaps the WT is warning you to get out in a very subdle way.

    CHUCK

  • TR
    TR

    Incredible amount of wisdom going on here. I read through all the posts. There's nothing I can add. Just had to mention it.

    TR

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