It's quite obvious that Bleep will never face the real issues and "ethics" of his own BOrganization. Run off and play now, Bleep! Come back when you're a bit more mature and can handle reality!
Of course there is constant debate about the composiotion of a cult, and about its practises. The interpretations are not rigid. Still if you apply Hassans interpretation, or Liftons criteria, or you apply festingers principles or Scheins, it makes no difference. The evidences they point out are present, to greater or lesser degrees, in every cult movement.
With regard to the criteria of "seperation" . All cults have a tendancy to speratation fron extended society. This can be at the extreme of a "Jones town" (in many ways the most extreme "Cult" I have ever read up on)where people are locked in a jungle compound surrounded by guards right thru to the Witness situation where members dwell within society but atr psychologically seperated and shun active association with non witnesses. It is still the cultic seperation tendancy being manifested. The guy who ran" heavens gate" used to go out with his group to movies and restaraunts , so I guess, according to bleeps interpretation, that wasnt a cult either.
Based on the seperation factor, I guess the Witnesses arent very "cultic", The Mormons and Adventists have a greater tendancy to physically seperate into enclaves. Here in Australia, the Mormons tend to gravitate towards Byron Bay in NSW. The Adventists to the hills around Melbourne. But this doesnt let the Witnesses off. The Witnesses history fabrication and concealment of changed beliefs is shocking. Much worse than Adventism. Almost Stalinesque in its audacity
Edited by - refiners fire on 10 August 2002 20:2:15
Beans where have you been? How can i spy on you for your wife if you don't come out and play?
Bleep, I'd like to respond to your question about the NWT.
When I became a Witness, I accepted the NWT, without doing any research or really questioning it. I didn't have the internet access as I have now, at that time, so I just kinda accepted that the NWT was what it was presented to me as, that being a more accurate, modern translation of God's Word.
During my time in the Organization, however, there were a number of occaisions when I noticed that the Society would incert a whole sentence in brackets ( [ ] ) into the text that, rather then serve to just make the text make sense in English, completely changed the meaning, or reinforced WT doctrine, when otherwise the text made sense saying something completely different. The last time I remember this coming up was during the study of "The Greatest Man" book, I believe the text I'm thinking of was in Luke, but I don't remember exactly, and I have lent my only copy to a friend who I was witnessing too some time ago (she became a Christian, accepted Christ as her savoir in December.)
Later on, when visiting Bethel, (Patterson, NY) the sister giving us a tour said she believed that when the NWT is released in new languages, it is translated from the original ancient languages into the new foreign languages....but I found out later, that acutally the NWT is translated from the English version into the other languages.
Later still, when I was df'd I still used the NWT primarily, though I've always had a King James and a New International Version at home as well. Then, when I read Raymond Franz's "In Search of Christian Freedom" he sites compelling evidence that there are major problems with the NWT...for one thing, the devine name was inserted in the Christian Greek Scriptures all over the place were it did not appear in the original test- why? Raymond Franz identifies members (though not all) of the NWT Translation Committee, with his uncle, Fred Franz, being considered for years as the "Scholar" of the Society, being the ONLY ONE that had enough education in the original languages to even ATTEMPT any Bible translation...how is it that they could create a new translation, from the original texts, with such little education in the original languages? Compare them to translation work for other translations......it's obivious that there is a big problem there.
Then, as I attemtped to defend my beliefs as learned in the Organization to other Christians from where I lived and at work, I was at a loss to explain myself when over and over again, the NWT appeared to just change the texts to be in harmony with their own doctrine...so I did research to find out if maybe the NWT was just more accurate...but what I found was very disturbing....take any text which reads "living soul" in the NWT and compare it to the NIV or KJV. Do reaserch online about the origin of the orignal texts....I have done TONS of research on the trinity too...which I never believed in or understand the concept of, even as a born-again Christian, before I was a Witness....but after all the research I've done about the original languages, I cannot deny that the NWT is not what it claims to be, that being a "more accurate translation."
That's enough to digest for now I think.
The NWT topic should be on the other topic: Is the NWT really the WT? There were some attempts made but no conclusive evidence. The light was not shown under those translations, so how can there be any real understanding about the Bible? People died for true understanding, and the trinity was a law instead of a teaching. I wish I had more time today to discuss the matter fully. I will be talking more about it on the topic I made about the NWT.
Sorry ,you don't know beans about God's Earthy Orginization no matter how hard you try. We go to work and school with all kinds of people. Plus we go public with door to door publications...
Ofcourse you do that, cause you dont have a chance to do OTHERWISE!! If there were special schools available for J.W.'s, you dont think that even ONE J.W. would attend an " apostate" school, do you! Save your breath in trying to convince me, Bleep!
True it is not up building going to a public school; at least they dont try to have 40% of the catholic people attend. They are now having trouble with young people having an active sex life. They are at the should we promote safe sex stage. They should be applying the abstain from sex until married stage.
Truth2me, i was where you are now about 3 years ago. One of the first things i researched was the accuracy of the NWT. Of course what you said about certain key doctrinal scriptures being changed to fit the teachings of WT are correct. Most are deliberate, and some are a result of poor scholarship.
No doubt you are familiar with the ones that deal with Christs divinity, ect.....But one that comes to mind on poor scholarship is Matt. 27:52,53. Every translation that i have read indicates the bodies of these beleivers were raised to life, and went into town and appeared to many. However, the NWT (not due to any apparant prejiduce) says that the bodies did rise to the surface of the ground, but people passing by reported these bodies to people in town.
I have read the greek to english on this passage as well as many commentators and other translations, and NOWHERE is there any mention of PEOPLE PASSING BY THE CEMETARY. There is also an old testament scripture(at the moment it escapes me) that says"Together with my dead body, shall they arise." This seemed to point to this particular incident, after the ressurection of the Lord.
The italics bothered me as well. Like in Collosians 1:16 when it says"all (other) things were created by him." That to me is obviously deliberate. I own a copy of most translations now, as well as various bible programs on cd with commentarys.
But i also believe that the gospel is hidden to them (non-believers) not because of a poor translation, but due to their hard heartedness. (Isa.29:10, Rom.9:18) If God is pleased to reveal the truth to anyone, in my opinion, he could do it throught the NWT. No, i dont use the NWT anymore, because of the above things mentioned, but if it was the only bible i could get, i would certainly use it, because God will reveal the things neccesary for salvation to you if you ask him.
Europe, actually (cringe) they do have JW schools, although there are (were) so few of them, it wouldnt apply to what you were saying to bleep. I should know, because my wife attended one years ago in Az. The conditions were very competitive to "Worldly" schools. ie..drugs, alchohol, teen pregnancy, to name a few. So much so, they eventually closed the school down.
However i must point out in all fairness, that these JW schools were not officially endorsed by the WTS. But one had to be a child of a JW to attend.