Anti-Evolutionists Wanted !!!!

by Francois 163 Replies latest jw friends

  • gsx1138
    gsx1138
    Likewise we have a theory of gravity, and the fact of gravity. I would not, if I were you, take confort in the word "theory" and walk off tall buildings.

    That argument would hold water if it wasn't for the fact that I can fly. I understand what you're saying though. But I think that remaining focused on one idea keeps you from seeing others. It is my understanding that a sientist should always be trying to disprove his own ideas until the variables are too minut. There are still too many variables in Evolution to consider it the only possibility. I use this analogy: I don't really believe that the UFO's that people see are alien craft but I hold open the possibility that they may be no matter how small the chance. I just don't dwell on that. Now if people saw UFO's and each had some type of alternate religous viewpoint on what it was I wouldn't give it much thought at all. I'm sorry if this is rambling, it is waaay to early for me to be thinking.

    gsx1138

  • JanH
    JanH

    gsx,

    It is my understanding that a sientist should always be trying to disprove his own ideas until the variables are too minut. There are still too many variables in Evolution to consider it the only possibility.

    Scientists do work to disprove their own theories, and if they don't you can bet their collegues will point out the shortcomings. Not to sure what you mean about "too many variables." There simply are no competing scientific theories available. There are no discrepancies. All known data point to evolution as a fact, and the theory which explains this fact, neo-darwinism, has been demonstrated to such a degree it is today only opposed for religious reasons.

    - Jan

  • hannibal
    hannibal

    I personally see both sides of the issue One must have faith to believe in a

    higher power, this is undeniable. But I feel evalutionists or athiest also

    have to have 'faith' in there own thery of life as well. I have many questions

    with little answers.One thing about evelution I have a hard time with is,

    it makes sense to me that things would follow the course of least resistance

    in the evelutionary chain, why wouldnt they? If that is true why do humans

    heal them selves?All living creatures heal themselves, why?When the body

    heals it self it fights against the 'path of least resistance', what gives a

    living creature this power?I do tend to agree with you for the most part,

    there are forms of evelution or mybe 'adapting' to our invirement, but,

    I also beleive there is a higher power behind all this.

  • IslandWoman
    IslandWoman

    Francois,

    Why is it impossible, in the minds of anti-evolutionists, that God did indeed create us, the earth, the sun, and everything around us including the entire physical universe, and that evolution was his technique; evolution as a Divine Technique? How do you know, how are you so certain that's not the case? How would you explain your opposition to God if he told you personally that, yep, that's the way he did it alright?

    IMO, science is now where the Catholic Church was in the days of Galileo: a delaring of "I am right and you are wrong, ALWAYS!"

    On MSNBC I recently read about a site in Colorado that has caused scientists to re-evaluate their estimation of how long it took the earth to rebound from the catastrophe that caused the end of the dinosaurs and much life on earth. It was thought that it probably took about 10 million years for life to rebound to the extent we see it today but what they found in Colorado is causing not a little stir about this estimation. It seems that from examining the evidence on this site the earth rebounded much more quickly than they thought, they reduced the number of years from 10 million to somewhere between 1 and 2 million years. What they found was that in geologic time, "shortly" after the dinosaurs died off a rain forest existed in Colorado. A rain forest more diverse than some rain forests in existence today.

    My point is that science is a learning process and for scientists to expect people to put their full trust in it at every step of the way is to expect "faith" in men, a course proven to be very risky to say the least.

    As for evolution, God may not have micro managed everything as many creationists seem to believe but it also does not mean that he started a soup mix and walked away. It could be somewhere in between. Mankind loves the arts the personal, hands on, making of beauty. Mankind also sees the usefulness of machines. He enjoys both. Maybe God did too.

    Thanks for bringing up this topic.

    IW

    Edited by - IslandWoman on 5 July 2002 11:41:51

  • NewWay
    NewWay

    Francois, some interesting observations. Heres my 2 cents.

    If one believes that Genesis, as we have it today, is infallably inspired and is to be taken literally, then one would have to reject evolution as it is presented to us today. Genesis states that male and female were created 'as is', not through some evolutionary process.

    However, if I do not accept Genesis as literal truth, then yes I think it reasonable that God could have put creatures through a series of evolutionary stages. The question is: 'Did he choose to do so?'. If so, what is the purpose of there still being apes left on the earth if the purpose was to graduate to the most advanced form of life on earth?

    More importantly, can it be proved by real evidence? If there is indeed 'overwhelming' evidence, then where is it? I haven't seen it. The evolutionists cause is not helped either by the falsification and resistance to examination of what fossils they have that they attribute to evolutionary-man. There is a very interesting book entitled, 'Buried Alive' by Jack Cuozzo, that examines a number of so-called fossil 'evidence' and the lengths to which some people will go to try to convince the public. Even the British Museum was implicated in cover-ups. Why would this be? I get the impression that to many evolutionist, Evolution is their religion which they are desperate to protect. To me, the religious faith of others they look down on is no less credible than their own faith.

    Basically, I'm not convinced that we evolved because as yet I haven't seen any real evidence. Different dating methods may suggest quite ancient dates for fossils, but does that prove that 'ape-like' skulls, etc were evolutionary pre-cursors of humankind? Has it not occurred to evolutionists that 'ape-like' remains may actually be from extinct varieties of ape?

  • Francois
    Francois

    Granted, science is in a learning process. However, scientists will not put you on the rack for not believing in their model, nor will they put you under house arrest for the rest of your life and take three centuries to apologize for being wrong. Nor will they kick you out of their club and separate you from your friends and family.

    I don't advocate that God started a soup and waked away. But if I design a "machine" to do a particular thing, it is not walking away if I stay to watch how it goes. If I intervene in the process I started, then I must believe that my process was flawed in the first place. I don't think God thinks his process is flawed and thus requires his intervention.

    And to return to the first point, science has never said "we are right and you are wrong always." Religion, the Church, most certainly has. The very basis of science is openess to challenge.

    Religion, it seems to me, should concern itself with the scientist, and leave science itself completely alone. It's going to lose the argument anyway.

    Thanks for your post.

    Frank

    Edited by - Francois on 5 July 2002 11:41:39

  • NewWay
    NewWay

    Francois, I would just like to add that although 'science' may not have said 'we're right and you're wrong', they've pretty much made up their mind that that is the case. When was the last time we heard, 'Evolutionist believe that we evolved...'? Today, without exception, our adults and children alike are told, 'When we evolved...' So, 'science' has made up the world's mind for it and the only real question that remains is, 'In what way did we evolve?'

  • larc
    larc

    IW, I don't quite understand your comment about scientists saying they are right and others are wrong. Scientists as a group are more tentative in their thinking. They tend to use phrases like, based on current facts, or, it is probably true that. Furthermore, the scientific process is self correcting, so that if an idea turns out to be wrong, there are scientist out there figuring out how to prove this. Now, it is true that scientists as individuals can fall prey to mistakes like anyone else. A scientist with a preconceived idea can misinterprete data based on his/her particular bias. Also, a scientist who has developed a theory may be so enamored with his creation that he will defend it in the face of overwhelming negative evidence from collegues. Another problem occurs when a scientist comes up with a radically new idea. Often, he will be ridiculed by others in his scientific community. Nonethless, if the idea is a good one it will eventually win out. I am presently working on an idea that is unique. My evidence is quite strong, but I expect I will receive much resistence, once I submit it for publication.

  • AlanF
    AlanF

    Gsx, just a bit more clarification on what a theory, a law and a fact is, in scientific terminology.

    A law is a general statement about how things are observed to behave.

    Thus, Newton's law of gravity is formulated thus: F = GmM/r^2 . I.e., the gravitational force between two objects of masses m and M is equal to the product of the masses, times a proportionality constant called "G" (the universal gravitational constant), divided by the square of the distance between the centers of the masses.

    A statement about how things apparently behave becomes a law when sufficient time has passed and sufficient observations have been made that scientists are extremely confident that no exceptions will be found. That does not mean that a law is absolute -- it only means that scientists are confident that it is a correct statement about the world.

    A theory is a set of statements about how things behave plus, more importantly, why things behave as they are observed to. Thus the theory of gravitation proposed by Einstein incorporates Newton's law of gravity plus a lot of other potential laws, plus a lot of statements about why gravity behaves the way it does, plus predictions about what new observations might show.

    A fact is a statement that has general and wide acceptance. A difference between a fact and a law is that a law is usually a formal statement about how a specific thing behaves, whereas a fact is much broader. We have Newton's law of gravity as narrowly defined above, and we have the broad fact of evolution. "The fact of evolution" means that a great deal of evidence indicates that life on earth has undergone great changes over millions of years, changes that form a sequence that look exactly like "descent with modification".

    The late Stephen Gould gave an excellent description of these ideas:

    In the American vernacular, theory often meansimperfect fact part of a hierarchy of confidencerunning downhill from fact to theory to hypothesis toguess. Thus the power of the creationist argument:evolution is only a theory and intense debate nowrages about many aspects of the theory. If evolutionis worse than a fact, and scientists cant even makeup their minds about the theory, then what confidencecan we have in it? Indeed, President Reagan echoedthis argument before an evangelical group in Dallaswhen he said (in what I devoutly hope was campaignrhetoric): Well it is a theory. It is a scientific theory only, and it has in recent years beenchallenged in the world of science that is, notbelieved in the scientific community to be asinfallible as it once was.
    Well, evolution is a theory. It is also a fact. Andfacts and theories are different things, not rungs ina hierarchy of increasing certainty. Facts are theworlds data. Theories are structures of ideas thatexplain and interpret facts. Facts dont go away whenscientists debate rival theories to explain them.Einsteins theory of gravitation replaced Newtons inthis century, but apples didnt suspend themselves inmidair, pending the outcome. And humans evolved fromape-like ancestors whether they did so by Darwinsproposed mechanism or by some other yet to bediscovered.
    Moreover, fact doesnt mean absolute certainty;there aint no such animal in an exciting and complexworld. The final proofs of logic and mathematics flowdeductively from stated premises and achieve certaintyonly because they are not about the empirical world.Evolutionists make no claim for perpetual truth,though creationists often do (and then attack us for astyle of argument that they themselves favor). Inscience, fact can only mean confirmed to such adegree that it would be perverse to withholdprovisional assent. I suppose that apples mightstart to rise tomorrow, but the possibility does notmerit equal time in physics classrooms.

    AlanF

    5 July 2002 11:56:41

    Edited by - AlanF on 5 July 2002 11:57:38

    Edited by - AlanF on 5 July 2002 11:59:6

  • IslandWoman
    IslandWoman

    Francois,

    I most certainly agree that science has and never will be as harmful as religion. My only point was that at one time the word to trust was that of religious men, today it is that of men of science.

    "Trust" is no longer a corporation I buy stock in.

    There have been men who were both artists and inventors. Why could not God have taken pleasure in establishing automated processes along with artistic intervention along the way? Mankind is doing that right now using genetic engineering.

    IW

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