Early manuscript evidence that exists for I John 5:7,8 |
Early church writers that used it: Cyprian 200 - 258 AD. "The Lord says, 'I and the Father are one;' and again it is written of the Father, and of the Son, and of the Holy Spirit, 'And these three are one'." If Cyprian quotes I John 5:7 from his Bible in 200• 258 AD, it must be a valid reading. His Bible was copied from an older manuscript containing this verse. Cyprian lived only 100 years after John wrote the book of I John. Cyprian would have had access to the original manuscript to check. • Priscillian 350 AD, a Spanish bishop quotes I John 5:7,8. Early bible versions that include it: Greek miniscule manuscripts that include it: |
Early Evidence for 1 John 5: 7
by Perry 114 Replies latest watchtower bible
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Perry
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designs
I doesn't matter Perry. The christian god was fabricated from several cultures and sources and has little identity with the God of the Jews.
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Chris Tann
Good work Perry. I heard about this before. There is another quote of Jesus in John 14:14 where in the New World Translation it reads " ask anything in my name" taken from the IT manuscript ,which is 2nd to 4th century. However in the reference bible the footnote quotes the P66 manuscript ,which is from 200 c.e.. it has Jesus saying "ask ME anything...". Now depending on the exact date of the earliest manuscript of the IT, the P66, which has Jesus telling His disciples to ask him... referring to prayer; P66 May be the earliest. And the rule is the earliest probably is the correct one.
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Perry
designs,
I think it matters a lot to some people. This information was never presented to me as a Jehovah's witness. That was before the internet of course.
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Chris Tann
Designs, that is a theory, not a fact.
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designs
It wouldn't matter if Saint John had a selfie taken of himself writing 1 John 5:7. The Christian god is an entirely different concept from Judaism. Jesus was not the Jewish Messiah or the Jewish God.
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designs
Chris- The Christian Messiah did not bring world peace, he claimed to be a hybrid God/man, he died, all those things disqualify Jesus of Nazareth from being the Jewish Messiah.
Any of the NT writers can claim anything they want it doesn't change the ground rules established in Judaism.
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Chris Tann
I think not Designs. But Iam open minded, please give some proof of your claim. Thanks
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designs
The Jewish Messiah was to be a human like Moses, Deut., he welcomes all Jews to the Homeland, has the Temple rebuilt, establishes world peace in the World to Come (Olam Ha Ba) and all humans enjoy the paradise of Gan Eden.
Your messiah told the to Jews to jump in a lake (Gehenna), there house was abandoned to them, he sided with the Roman Empire, he died, he claimed to be a hybrid human. That all disqualifies your messiah from being the Jewish Messiah.
So it doesn't matter if your Christian Apostles all jumped up and down chanting Trinity Trinity Trinity all day long, it just doesn't matter.
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fulltimestudent
Perry: Cyprian lived only 100 years after John wrote the book of I John.
Wow! That's a big assertion. The letter we call 1 John, does not name an author. It's only a tradition that John the Apostle, was the author.
Personally, it does not matter to me, who wrote that letter, but to assert that John was the author, when there is no other evidence for his authorship, is merely speculation.
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Perry: Cyprian would have had access to the original manuscript to check.
Again, Perry, how you know that?
Strangely, we know more about Cyprian than we know about the author of the Johannine letters.
So let's examine the likelihood of Cyprian being able to access the original letter. First, it's complicated by the letter's literary style. It's not written as a letter, some scholarship labels it a 'circular epistle,' others think of it a sermon, and some scholarship think that its more like a composite of various sermons, strung together to support one side of a rupture within that particular Christian community. So just what was the original document?
Second, we do know where Cyprian was located - his home was Carthage. And, yes, he was most likely born around 200 CE, but became a Christian at age 35, which moves us to 235 CE, and became the bishop about 249 CE. The very next year, Roman Emperor Decius, alarmed at Roman problems ordered a loyalty (patriotic) test, which involved -
"... perform(ing) a sacrifice to the Roman gods and the well-being of the Emperor. The edict ordered that the sacrifices be performed in the presence of a Roman magistrate, and a signed and witnessed certificate be issued to that effect. It was the first time that Christians had faced legislation forcing them to choose between their religious beliefs and death, although there is no evidence that Decius' edict was specifically intended to target Christians." ( http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Decian_persecution )
Cyprian, by the way, thought it expedient to disappear and ran away, rather that refuse the Decian test of loyalty to the state. That led to certain problems, but is beside the point here.
What I'm getting at, is that the bulk of his writings are likely dated after 250 CE, which means, if we accept a date for the Johannine documents of circa 100 CE (which not all scholarship would accept), that Cyprian was writing 150 years later.
What are the chances that he read the original document? Where would that original document be in the period after 250 CE? Again, we dont know. We really can't even be sure of the area where the original Apostle John preached and where the Johannine community of Christians was located. A few argue for Asia minor, which if true is a long way from Carthage (though the early Christians seem to have done a lot of travelling), and we have no reason to state that Cyprian accessed the original document.
So it's merely an unverifiable assertion that Cyprian did access the original document.