What is spirit, exactly?

by Viviane 609 Replies latest watchtower beliefs

  • snare&racket

    The level of hydrogen ions in the blood (itself an indicator of how much co2 there is in our blood) drives the diaphragm and the muscles in the thorax (chest) to expand and contract, adjusting the volume and therefore the air pressure inside your lungs, thus air will enter or leave based on the internal air pressure. If someone loses that drive they hyperventilate, so we give them a bag to breathe with, they then consume co2 and that drives their breathing again. People assume oxygen levels drive breathing, but it is actually the level of co2 in the blood. (unlesss you have copd).

    Oxygen molecules (made in stars) will go via diffusion from low concentrstion to high concentration, just as all things do.

    So oxygen will enter the blood (low concentration) from the air (high concentration) and likewise for the exact opposite reason, CO2 leaves the blood (high concentration) for the air (lower concentration).

    Our lungs have a region of sacs called alveoli, in their lining that interact with the putside air and the body's blood vessels carrying blood along the lining of the lungs. This is where the transfer called diffusion happens.

    Breathing is very mechanical, it happens in various animals, in various ways... it is all explained and done so without invoking a gap for 'spirit' whatever that is by your own definition, understanding, interpretation.

    There is no mystery or magic. Where exactly in this process is the spirit and why call it the spirit instead of Oxygen atoms, made in a star? I assume you don't think spirit is made in stars? Why is oxygen spirit, why not helium, gold, carbon? You must admit, what we once weee told as believers has been left wanting by evidence!

    I am confident I know where this comes from, you are trying to make genesis fit what you can see around you, what has been learned by science.When god breathed spirit into Adam.... maybe consider that your evidence suggests this is untrue, but was how ancient peoples assumed life began when creating genesis stories in their cultures. It is not difficult to see how they came to such conclusions in the ignorance of humankind 4000+ years ago.

    Because sadly, there is no gap to squeeze spirit in. We understand the process well.

    Also, if you now retreat 'spirit' to the initiation of life, please remember we have created synthetic life in a labratory. From scratch! Do you believe god breathed life into the biological machines we have made as humans? We have them create fuel from waste products by changing their DNA by human design. As with all living things, they respire, just as we breathe. When the synthetic life is constructed it simply starts functioning, like a water mill being built and automatically coming to life when the last piece is added. Does this not make you question what you thought life was at least?

    P.s. I have not once said doing this equates us with god or a creator, we are only altering what already existed, not creating life from 'nothing'. Nobody claims that.

    Before you google diffusion, though it is,very interesting, it is based on the forces of physics and happens in all sorts of contexts. You may have heard of diffusion with water, osmosis. When you pour a cordial into a glass of water, the cordial juice seeks the least concentrated regions of water and likewise the water seeks the least water concentrated regions of the cordial, as seen when the drinks are mixed together.. just to save a conversation where diffusion may be called spirit by some. Diffusion is all about pressure gradients.

    The reason oxygen is used snd co2 is released, is no accident. Just as your car needs oxygen and fuel, so does our cells, and also just as with your car, our cells release c02 and water as a waste product. It is internal combustion of another form.

  • Viviane

    when I refer to breathing I dont mean that the act of breathing is the spirit but is used in terms of taking breath (air oxygen)which is the bodies way of staying alive by using the force of the air in our lungs.

    So it's not breathing, it's the act of taking breaths? That's breathing. You are saying is nothing breathing, it's taking in breath, which is breathing.

    We are no closer to an answer.

  • prologos

    are there not life-forms on earth er in the deep sea that do not rely on the oxigen cycle for ife's function, energy use, reproduction, growth?

    The spirit= 'oxigen use of genesis, breath' is an oversimplification of what makes life unique , separate from inorganic reactions?

  • snare&racket

    Is that a question prologos?

    Respiration is very different to breathing, so applying spirit now to respirination, is to take it down yet another tangent.

    I haven't seen so much.... mental gymnastics and wild nocturnal stabbing...for some time here.

  • Ruby456

    new hope and happiness

    Anyone know what Ruby meant by " in the spirit and memory of slimboyfat" ? hope his ok.

    I don't know slimboyfat in real life, I don't even know if he was a real person. I guess I ought to have said "in the spirit and memory of slimboyfat's identity" on this site. If he was a real person and has successfully gone back to the organisation and can handle a complex sense of identity then he probably is okay with the community side of Jehovahs witnesses.

  • prologos

    S&R I merely found the discussion was getting to narrow just dealing with the 'breath of life' in Genesis.

  • galaxie

    The explanation of the operation /mechanics of an engine allthough admirable,does not alter the fact that it is useless without the fuel the components of which existed before the engine was ever dreamed of. There is nothing mystical about that.

    Likewise the functioning of a body which can be expertly explained, is useless without the fuel which also existed before the body existed, there is nothing mystical about that.

    Both examples would not now exist without the processes( evolutionary) which produced an oxygen rich environment.

    We could if we wish call spirit oxygen or nitrogen or take your pick, but evolutionary language, sounds, words definitions have brought us to the vocabulary we use.

    One such word is spirit,,.what do we do with it consign it to the bin/trash never to be used again?

    The O, P. chose to ask of those interested enough to proffer their opinions/explanations of what it is without specifying which definition .

    My response was from the outset in human terms( nothing mystical ) that it IS simply the air we breath basically what has given us life, keeps us alive, existed before us,(given that other factors also contributed)but as in ancient cultures air we breathe was seen as spirit(nothing mystical unless you choose for whatever reason you make it mystical supernatural ).

    The other definition as a descriptive for human traits as alluded to is also what spirit IS in our vocabulary

    Spirit as gods, angels, demons and supernatural force, although so defined is as I have said hogwash imo.

    Viv ...I said the act of breathing is NOT SPIRIT you misread.

    Best wishes.

  • snare&racket

    I think thousands of years ago, they assumed there was a first man and woman, makes sense, you can't have people without an original man and woman.

    Of course this is not correct in reality.

    How did these people come to be? Well god made them from the earth. Then he interacted with them so that they came to life. He used his spirit to breathe life into them.

    Dead people don't breathe, thousands of years ago, it would be logical to assume life is connected to breathing. Remember they had no concept of oxygen, celluar respiration etc .... it was just something humans and animals did,until they died.

    All of this ignorance led to this idea of god using a force to introduce breath into inanimate forms to become alive.

    I have no opinion on its use today or whether it will survive as a term.

    I do think that whilst there are people that believe a spirit exists, that it helps us breathe....... we have a lot of work to do.

  • galaxie

    Hi S&N ...I concur.

    I do not believe ' A ' spirit exists as form other than the composite air we breath, as you point out when first the idea of spirit as breath was conjured the components of the air had no way of being scientifically analysed or given names it was just a force of some kind which entered and left the body, giving rise to unrealistic causes of such. The reverberations of which are still apparent today.

    I would however say it is logical to assume life is connected to breathing.. stop breathing no life.

    Perhaps I have taken you out of context.

    Best wishes.

  • Viviane

    Viv ...I said the act of breathing is NOT SPIRIT you misread.

    To be fair, you've said all of the following:

    In this scenario spirit is a descriptive word which can be used in place of;..attitude as in she has a bad attitude you could say she has a bad spirit.or I'm at a low ebb, could be I'm not in very good spirit. Or he is a very spirited person meaning he is very motivated.

    That force is not supernatural but is the air we breathe

    It is ONLY because of oxygen any of us can have any so called spirit (remembering before there was ever such a word descriptive or otherwise there was the air we breathe )

    That is the spirit of life which then in turn is fundamental to our continuing our development until finally our last breath goes out and as some would say his/her spirit is finally gone, in other words no more. breath no more spirit for that individual.

    Therefore our human spirit in all its guises is a combination of the brains formulation of our desires and goals for whatever purpose and the way we bring that to fruition.

    Every breath you take allows you to continue in a spirited way ie as all human beings

    You've called spirit composite air, oxygen, attitude, breath, taking breaths and the brain. Could you just, in one sentence, clearly state exactly what you are saying spirit is? I apologize if I misunderstand, but you've called it so many thing it's hard to know exactly what you mean.

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