There Was No First Human (page 26)

KateWild

Ok first set of pictures are great, however I am going to have to look up those other animals, never heard of them. Kate xx

KateWild

After looking them up I understand the chart better now. Thanks I enjoyed that cofty. Kate xx

Viviane

I mean really...where's the proof?

I'm not doing your homework, go look it up. Read a book. You obviously don't know what you are talking about unless you are trolling.

I don't purport to say anything about fish evolving...I'm merely phrasing a question...which you did not answer....

It seems as if you think it's an "all fish or no fish" proposition. I want to understand why.

Once the change has occurred, the previous entity no longer exists.

Using that logic, you're a new species every time one of your cells divides imperfectly. Is that what you are suggesting?

Nature was never and will never be "Just IS".

That's exactly wrong.

Apognophos

It's the internet and debate, it's words on a screen from a person you never met that can't hurt you and doesn't know anything at all about you. It's time to put your big girl panties on if you wanna jump in.

I agree with this. That's why I think it's slightly absurd for someone to demand an apology for being called "dense" when they called someone else 'clueless'. Defending an insult by saying 'it's okay because it's true' is even more absurd. Naturally in any debate each side thinks they are right and their opponent is not in line with the facts, which means that all insults are okay as long as the insulter believes he is stating fact. How about avoiding loaded words altogether? I admit this is hard to do, and I recently broke my own rule about this and was insulting to Viviane in another thread, and I feel badly about that.

If people read insults into someone's tone, that's one thing, but there's no need to slap labels on someone like "ignorant" and "don't have a clue". Just explain what they're doing wrong, or if you're too frustrated, leave the conversation for a while.

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Maat13, I think I can identify a couple basic incorrect assumptions you're making about evolution:

1. All members of a population/species must evolve in the same direction at the same rate. This would be highly unusual. In fact due to random genetic drift and slightly different environments and experiences, members of a population will often split and slowly evolve in different directions.

2. Nature has a purpose and therefore evolution can only operate on the basis of a need to adapt in order to survive. If you read this somewhere, it is incorrect. First of all, let me ask you how you know that nature has a purpose? Have you observed nature making decisions or moving towards a certain goal? Secondly, evolution allows diversification. It doesn't mandate anything to happen. However, diversification allows creatures to fill every available niche.

Picture a gene pool as a bucket of water. Pour it out on some soil. Where does the water go? Anywhere it can. Into the soil, running downhill in any direction that provides little resistance, etc. Life is the same. It naturally fills in any place that it can live. Why? Because this allows the life to avoid competing with other life. Any resources that are not being used, like a kind of food or living space that is toxic to another animal, are a great avenue for adaptation even if an organism is doing well in its current state. Life is opportunistic like that.

P.S.: It's true that sometimes we have a habit of anthropomorphizing, which might mean that we say things like, "Life wants to fill every available niche." This implies a desire on the part of some organism or group, but it's just a turn of phrase. There is no intent by mother nature or any individuals.

Viviane

I admit this is hard to do, and I recently broke my own rule about this and was insulting to Viviane in another thread, and I feel badly about that.

I appreciate the sentiment, but it's really nothing to worry about, darling. I sometimes do it too, we all make mistakes! (on the cheek)

If people read insults into someone's tone, that's one thing, but there's no need to slap labels on someone like "ignorant" and "don't have a clue". Just explain what they're doing wrong, or if you're too frustrated, leave the conversation for a while.

There can be insults, to be sure, but to be ignorant on a subject is simply to not know. Sometimes that's the case. I am ignorant on the subject of early American literature. I am ignorant on architecture. I know very little on either subject, so it would just be embarassing for me to join topics on those subjects and start telling people that have studied it they were wrong. As long as we are simply ignorant on a subject and not something like an ignorant fool, it's just a fact, not an insult, no different than telling me how tall I am or am not.

KateWild

Maat13,

You have a lot of questions. It is clear to see you are interested in evolution, but also we have to come to terms that WT has clouded our view. I thought the brochure "The Origin of Life" was scientifically correct. But there are things in it that are misleading.

Try not to get discouraged by others, try to stay open minded. Some science is hard to understand but I have to admit cofty's pictures are quite simple and he prooves the point about fish. Stick around we are here to help you.

Kate xx

jgnat

...evolution in action.... - viv

A controlled experiment?...did you observe it? .how complex was the species? what were the conditions under which this "evolution" took place? - maat13

To observe evolution in action through controlled experiment, one must use a species that breeds very rapidly, with a short lifespan. This is underway at Michigan State University, the E. coli Long-term Experimental Evolution Project. You can check out the controls yourself if you like. So far the E. coli species have been through 60,000 generations since 1988 and indeed evolution has been observed.

Now, to tie it back to "There Was No First Human", is the first population of E. coli genuine, or the new one? As new species live alongside their cousins for many generations, when does the change become so significant that we now have "Sapiens"? Is it when interbreeding is no longer possible? The "Sapiens" that led to all of us might have begun in an isolated valley with all other sorts of hominids trotting around elsewhere, but Sapiens eventually dominated.

Apognophos

I appreciate the sentiment, but it's really nothing to worry about, darling.

Thanks, I'm glad to hear that. I was being quite childish, and later I was kicking myself for posting first and thinking second.

There can be insults, to be sure, but to be ignorant on a subject is simply to not know. Sometimes that's the case. I am ignorant on the subject of early American literature.

I think there's a couple problems with this, though. One is that people do tend to take "ignorant" as an insult. I can't prove this with any references, but I think most people would agree that it's insulting to be called ignorant, even on a specific topic. It's just an inflammatory word for people. There are more constructive ways to say that someone doesn't have enough knowledge (like that!).

The second issue is that calling ourselves ignorant on some subject is easy; I'm largely ignorant of how cells work and I have the high school biology grades to prove it. But if I'm debating a topic that touches on biology and I say something wrong about cells, I would hope someone would say "Here is why you're wrong", not "The problem, you see, is that you're ignorant; read some books". It's just not helpful and the tone of the reply suggests that the forum is not the proper place for detailed discussion (why not?) or that the replier doesn't want to help us. It creates an unfriendly atmosphere.

I realize it can be time-consuming to reply to everyone who questions evolution and needs to be informed about the fundamental facts, but there are ways to deal with that without resorting to "You're ignorant":

1. Copy and paste your old posts. Keep them in a handy text file somewhere. This makes replying cheap and easy!

2. Just attempt to correct one misunderstanding as briefly as possible.

3. Don't reply! Save yourself the aggravation. Someone else will probably handle it if you don't.

There Was No First Human

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