There Was No First Human (page 24)

Maat13

Viviane,

great question...

you don't evolve from something that still exists...

Either there was a phenomenonal mutation (which wipes out the previous species) or an implementation of a new a species all together. Fish are still here..and if only some species of fish "evolved", why not all species of fish?

More importantly, why was there a need to evolve? A message like the one presented provides no insight into this fundamental question. Darwin failed miserably at it. And I challenge any evolutionist to show proof of a NEED for humans to have evolved from any other species that lived on this planet.

Maat

atrapado

Viviane Tested it against injection attacks(yes), man in the middle attacks(no network), did boundary testing(yes), looked for race conditions(yes), ensured proper garbage collection(only use languages that don't have gc), memory leaks(yes), made sure all input strings had an enforced format(yes), etc., all with a team of testers(yes). Granted the programms I am talking about are not super complex they are not "hello programs" they are used by the company I worked for and another company. You said we cannot program bug-free programs. Which is false a simple hello program proves you wrong. Sure once a program gets complex enough is not feasible or possible to make it bug-free and once connected to a network all bets are off.

If you care about my credentials I am a Senior Software Engineer and have been coding for 10+ years professionally UC Berkeley Grad(EECS) the CEO at my company calls me n&k hero because I solved problems other programmers take to long or just cannot. I do consulting on the side. Yous ask my customer why they keep giving me projects(when they have their own software team) they'll tell I have never gone over a dateline and deliver what I promise(I know sounds like a lie, software that meets datelines unheard of). Are those programs bug-free? They might not pass all the tests mention above but there was no need to test that. The enviroment they are in doesn't expose them to those threats(injection attacks and middle attacks). And they would have not paid me any extra if I made sure they passed those tests. If it does exaclty what the customer/specs requested without crashing is bug-free.

Viviane

You said we cannot program bug-free programs. Which is false a simple hello program proves you wrong.

First, that's not what I said AND I explicitely exluded Hello World, so no, I wasn't. Secondly, you didn't write bug free software, you can't claim to have written bug free software as, just like your attempts as providing your filter and test for "human?", there are unknown things that you can't ever know if you have found out. You can't EVER say a program is bug free, at best you can say "we haven't found any", IOW, exactly what I said, the software is at the highest known state of quality.

Thanks for showing them, but I am not really interested in particular in your credentials. Thanks, though, they sound impressive.

If it does exaclty what the customer/specs requested without crashing is bug-free.

This is non-sense. You said you tested against injection attacks and then didn't didn't make sure it passed because they aren't exposed. Both can't be true.

In any event, this thread is not the place to discuss this, start a thread if you want to continue. I may or may not join.

Viviane

you don't evolve from something that still exists...

That's exactly how evolution works. It's been observed in action.

Either there was a phenomenonal mutation (which wipes out the previous species) or an implementation of a new a species all together.

That's exactly the opposite of how evolution works.

Fish are still here..and if only some species of fish "evolved", why not all species of fish?

Back up. Explain why you think all fish would evolve into a new species at the same time?

More importantly, why was there a need to evolve? A message like the one presented provides no insight into this fundamental question. Darwin failed miserably at it. And I challenge any evolutionist to show proof of a NEED for humans to have evolved from any other species that lived on this planet.

To survive under changing environmental conditions, for one. But, in any event, populations change over time, regardless, that's a fact. It just IS. Need may not have anything to do with it.

talesin

From the Cambridge Dictionairies online:

not have a clue

- to be completely unable to guess, understand, or deal with something

An objective observation is an observation made with no prior bias, based solely on fact. Personal opinions are not a part of a true objective observation.

What facts are you using to determine that atrapado is completely unable to guess, understand, or deal with learning about the evolutionary process?

You have insulted this member's intellect, and effectively called them a moron. That is a fact.

When the person tells you they feel that is a personal insult, you claim it was an objective observation. That is a fact.

No big surprise, as this is your usual modus operandi.

I for one, would prefer that you attempt to display a modicum of dignity and respect to others. That, is my personal opinion.

And we wonder why atheists are getting a bad rep on this DB. I grow weary of you and a few others, with your superior attitudes, making the rest of us look bad.

How do you expect people to learn, when you constantly ridicule them?

tal

Viviane

People have politely explained, referenced, re-explained and re-illustrated the point. If someone's still not getting it, why is it wrong to point that out?

zed is dead

Bullshit,

There had to be a first human. There is a first everything. It doesn't mean it was created or evolved, just that there has to be a first SOMETHING.

cofty is just a pot-stirrer! There also was a first smeghead.

zed

atrapado

Viviane the programs for my customers are much more complex(I written 1000s of programs). When I said I test for injection attacks I was talking about other programs simpler programs that are used by my company. My point with customer's program was that to them is bug-free and that is when we stop coding and debugging.

Simple sequencial programs outside OS interaction can be showned to be bug-free. All cases are tested and accounted for. So yes you can claim is bug-free. If the program is deterministic and not very complex you can test all cases, finite set so you can test all cases. (If you want to include cosmic rays hitting one of the registers then causing the program to crash, then you are right you cannot acount for that not even with your hello program but is no longer a software bug that would be a hw bug) If the program is non-deterministic or complex enough that is beyond the capacity of the programmer in terms of keeping out with all cases then you are right.

You can use mathematical proofs to show simple programs are bug-free. While this may be true in principle, it isn't even somewhat true in practice.

And your claim about "hello world" was after you claim bug-free code is impossible NOT TRUE simple programs can be mathematically showend to be bug-free. I never claim all programs can be bug-free.

About the filter all I said was I couldn't see why it wouldn't work, not related to bug-free, you guys had made a strong case against the filter idea I wasn't trying to use one to proof the other. You made a claim before even bringing the 'hellow world' example that is not true.

I don't want to hijack this thread with this so I am done. If you want me to continue replying to this open a new thread or pm me.

LisaRose

If any here would like to learn a bit more about evolution, I suggest subscribing to the National Geographic. It doesn't take the place of a good, basic text on the matter, but sometimes you don't have the time or attention span for a full study.

The latest issues has a good article about how dinosaurs in Utah evolved into many different species that would illustrate how and why one species would evolve and eventually become a different species. . Lots of pictures and illustrations make it fairly painless.

And I have written bug free programs also.

Viviane

Actually, I have little interest in continually explaining things to you on evolution, much less software development, with you continually not getting it so, no, I would not prefer to continue.

Have a pleasant evening.

There Was No First Human

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