Typical JW Apologist

by TheStar 185 Replies latest jw friends

  • Will Power
    Will Power

    'And what would please Jehovah more?" (OK I'll do it whatever it is)

    Going to university to learn how to perform bloodless surgery or pioneering in these last days. Some are selling their homes! What joy they must feel knowing they won't need any of that after a few more years or even sooner!

    The 'sole channel of communication' knows what is good for you, because we get all our info straight from the top!!!

    Paraphrase of Mar 1969 WT

    p.s. but don't hold us to any of this because we'll deny any apostate finger pointing.

  • hector3000
    hector3000

    [Dutchie: If I did something that caused me to be disfellowshipped my poor old granny would not speak to me, neither would my parents, nor my six brothers and three sister. They would shun me.]

    As is required by the Bible. I am sorry that you and the Bible conflict.

    [Dutchie: Oh, and one other thing. A prophet is not only one who originates prophesy a prophet is one who says that "these are the words of Jehovah".]

    And when have we have said that in relation to application of prohecy?
    "We are not prophesying; we are merely giving our surmises, the Scriptural basis for which is already in the hands of our readers in the six volumes of SCRIPTURE STUDIES. We do not even aver that there is no mistake in our interpretation of prophesy and our calculations of chronology. We have merely laid these before you, leaving it for each to exercise his own faith or doubt in respect to them." -- "Views From the Watch Tower," Zion's Watch Tower and
    Herald of Christ's Presence, 1 January 1908, reprint, 4110.

  • Dutchie
    Dutchie

    Awake! 1993 March 22 pp.3-4 Why So Many False Alarms? ***
    [Footnotes]

    Jehovah's Witnesses, in their eagerness for Jesus' second coming, have suggested dates that turned out to be incorrect. Because of this, some have called them false prophets. Never in these instances, however, did they presume to originate predictions 'in the name of Jehovah.' Never did they say, 'These are the words of Jehovah.'

    Direct from one of the WTBTS's publications.

    As to shunning, actually the scripture says that SOME of them shunned the evildoer. No all, but SOME. Leading me to believe that it was a matter of conscience. For instance, if I knew someone were a child abuser or a murderer, I would not need an organization to tell me to stay away from such a person. There are some people I just would not want to be associated with. However, the CHOICE is mine. Mine and not the choice of a publishing company. So, Hector, the Bible and I are not at odds. The WTBTS and I are at odds!

  • Will Power
    Will Power

    "Views From the Watch Tower," Zion's Watch Tower and
    Herald of Christ's Presence, 1 January 1908, reprint, 4110. [christ returned in 1874]

    "The Bible," The Bible, Synoptic Gospel of Matthew "gift of the LORD, the tax collector, called Levi by Mark & Luke, circa 50-70 A.D., written in Greek, without explanation of Jewish customs. [to prove to his Jewish readers that Jesus is their Messiah.]

    Then if anyone says to you, Behold, here is the Christ, or There He is, do not believe him. [1914]
    For false Christs and false prophets [in a sense] will arise and will show great signs and wonders [1918] so as to mislead, if possible, even the elect.[those who already believe in Christ] Behold I have told you in advance. So if they say to you, Behold He is in the wilderness [invisible], do not go out, or behold, He is in the inner rooms, [Beth-El]do not believe them. For just as the lightning comes from the east and flashes even to the west, so will the coming of the Son of Man be.[every eye will witness, not just those in brooklyn]

    I believe these verses to be prophetic since a JW's LOVE Matt chapt 24. They never seem to get to the end of this part tho. hmmmmm

    Which resource has more credibility?

  • Dutchie
    Dutchie

    When these "prophesies" are presented to the congregations, it is hardly ever in such tentative terms as you suggest. They instanty become the new truth of the day, and pity the publisher who happens to mention that maybe they got it wrong, maybe this is not true or even "I don't believe this". He is immediately targeted as a dissenter, one who is causing division and he could be facing a judicial committee.

  • hector3000
    hector3000

    [Dutch: As to shunning, actually the scripture says that SOME of them shunned the evildoer. No all, but SOME. Leading me to believe that it was a matter of conscience. For instance, if I knew someone were a child abuser or a murderer, I would not need an organization to tell me to stay away from such a person. There are some people I just would not want to be associated with. However, the CHOICE is mine.]

    Reply: The 1st century Church was actually very judicious, as the following from Smith's Bible Dictionary:
    "Excommunication, as exercised by the Christian Church, is not merely founded on the natural right, possessed by all societies, nor merely on the example of the Jewish Church and nation. It was instituted by our Lord (Matt. xviii. 15, 18), amd it was practised and commanded by St. Paul (1 Tim. i. 20; 1 Cor. v. 11; Tit. iii.10). In the Epistles, we find St. Paul frequently claiming the right to exercise discipline over his converts (comp. 2 Cor. i. 23, xiii.10).
    ...The Nature of Excommunication is made more evident by the acts of St. Paul than by any investigation of Jewish practice or of the etymology of words. We thus find,
    (1) that it is a spiritual penalty, involving no temporal punishment, except accidentally;
    (2) that it consists in seperation from the communion of the Church;
    (3) that its object is the good of the sufferer ( 1 Cor. v.5), and the protection of the sound members of the Church ( 2 Tim. iii. 17);
    (4) that its subjects are those who are guilty of heresy (1 Tim. i. 20), or gross immorality (1 Cor. v. 1);
    (5) that it is inflicted by the authority of the Church at large (Matt. xviii. 18), wielded by the
    highest ecclesiastical officer (1 Corinthians 5:3; Titus 3:10)
    (6) that this officer's sentence is promulgated by the congregation to which the offender belongs, (1 Corinthians 5:4) in defence to his superior judgment and command, (2 Corinthians 2:9) and in spite of any opposition on the part of a minority, (2 Corinthians 2:6)
    (7) that the exclusion may be of indefinite duration, or for a period;
    (8) that its duration may be abridged at the discretion and by the indulgence of the person who has imposed the penalty, (2 Corinthians 2:8)
    (9) that penitence is the condition on which restoration to communion is granted, (2 Corinthians
    2:8)
    (10) that the sentence is to be publicly reversed as it was publicly promulgated. (2 Corinthians 2:10) "

    This point is re-iterated by the following:
    Excommunicaton

    "The permanent or temporary exclusion of a church member from fellowship within the community. This practice, specifically mentioned in Matthew's Gospel (Matt. 18:15-17) and the Corinthian correspondence (1 Cor. 5:5; 2 Cor. 2:6), served 2 purposes. First, it protects the community from the harmful influence of the sinner (1 Cor. 5:6-7). Second, it reminds the sinner of the sin (2 Cor. 2:7) in the hope that repentance (7:9) and redemption occur. Excommunication is never an individual or (2 Cor. 2:6) or judgmental activity (v.8) and it is not a withdrawal of concern for the sinner. It always has restoration as its ultimate goal.
    Although the term ‘excommunication’ does not appear in Scripture, the concept is clearly present. Matthew instructs the Church to treat unrepentant members like ‘a Gentile and a tax collector’ (Matt. 18:17), and Paul wants the guilty party delivered ‘over to Satan’ (1 Cor. 5:5), i.e., delivered over to the realm of Satan, the world outside the Church.
    Church discipline, ending in excommunication, should only be used for serious matters such as blatant sexual sins (1 Cor. 5:1), unrepentance (Matt. 18:15-17), factiousness (Tit. 3:10-11), and the propagation of heresy (Rom. 16:17). Sinners should be dealt with quickly and seriously for both the health of the community and the spiritual health of the offender.”
    p. 438, Eerdman’s Dictionary of the Bible
    If you are not part of an organizational structure, who is enforcing

  • Will Power
    Will Power
    Although the term ‘excommunication’ does not appear in Scripture, the concept is clearly present.

    just as other words like trinity and spaghetti are not in the bible therefore they were not taught and are false teachings. Pick & choose, pick & choose

    NOW where in your list does it say that Judicial Committees are conducted in SECRET The elders decide, the congregation only hears of the decision AND OBEYS.

  • hector3000
    hector3000

    [Dutch:When these "prophesies" are presented to the congregations, it is hardly ever in such tentative terms as you suggest. They instanty become the new truth of the day]

    Reply: And when have you known this to happen? I was around in 1975, and we were instructed to ignore what some brothers were speculating then. It seems not a firm as you suggest.

  • Dutchie
    Dutchie

    I guess I don't have to tell you that the worde "organization" appears no where in the Bible. Brother Russell, whom you love to quote, also did not believe in the concept of organization. In fact, if Russell came back today he would absolutely not recognize the religion he started. But then he'd be disfellowshipped for some of the beliefs he held!

    That, notwithstanding, we would far less need for shunning if there were elders who were not judgmental and who did their jobs in a righteous way. Too often this is simply not the case. Sometimes people are disfellowshipped just because the elder felt that it was the politically correct thing to do.

    These men who are supposedly "appointed" (LOL!) by holy spirit are just pitiful tokens that the Governing Body thrusts upon the publishers. They are often times uneducation or severly undereducated. This is, of course, not true of the entire body of elders, but it is true of enough of them so that there is a real need in the congregations for truly spiritual men. Who most often gets disfellowshipped? Single mothers, women with no power, no standing in the congregations, teenagers who have had sex before marriage and others who do not have the equipment to defend themselves. Sometimes elders disfellowship just to show their power over the flock. I have seen it over and over again. I guess that's why they now have an elders school.

    I know that the Bible teaches excommunication. I also know that it teaches fasting and gluttony. Maybe some of these obsese people should be disfellowshipped! I bet that would clear out the congregations fast.

    The Bible teaches us of Jehovah of Armies, a warlike God, who punishes, is vengeful, jealous and who is pleased when his followers have a fear of him.

    The Bible teaches a lot of things that are not realistically beneficial for our times. (Please don't give me thre "All Scripture" jazz.)

    Shunning is one of them. Its cruel and a primitive form of discipline. It treats people like babies and deprives adults of the dignity they deserve.

    If I sax a tax collector on the street, I would tip my hat, say hello and keep on walking.

  • dungbeetle
    dungbeetle

    It's not in the bible, but it's in the bible.

    This is a JW board, and the subject here is JW's practices. The issue is....

    Do JW's have a bible base for what they practice?

    Or do they have a monetary basis for what they practice?

    The answer is no. To say that ST. Paul (..??)) SAID such and such is no different no matter who makes that assertion.

    Disfellowshiping kills. And the bottom line is, the community is going to start holding this religion accountable for any damage it does.

    So Watchtower, you GO AHEAD and send rapists to our doors, and teh victims/survivors to the morgue and to the mental wards.

    And pay for it. Period. How's that.

    BEFORE YOU TRY AND REMOVE THE STICK FROM MY ARSE, REMOVE THE TELEPHONE POLE FROM YOUR OWN ARSE.

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