Paralipomenon - genius.
I told the elders that I would take blood and donate blood
Paralipomenon: Thanks for your goog idea. I already sent a letter 2 months ago not exactly with what you suggested but with some very hard questions. I didnt get a reply. 3 years ago I sent another letter about an easier subject. They replied quite fast. Either they don't answer or they answer the CO or body of elders to tell me. Any way thid morning i will meet with the elders. I will tell you how it goes (maybe in the evening or tomorrow).
Best of luck buddy..
So I had the meeting with only 1 elder (it was originally planned with 2 elders. He couldn't find a second one who had time (maybe those that had time were not in a mood for a blood discussion).
I must say the elder who talked with me (COBE) is a very loving and caring person. His intention is not to have me df or da.
We discussed some reasons why I believe a blood transfusion in a life threatening situation is not contradicting the scriptures (1. Cor. 10:25-28, Lev. 17:15-16, Matth 12) and things I find illogical concerning fractions.
He kind of objected that I am just picking the things from the scriptures because I want to have a guarantee for life.
I stated a few times that I think to refuse it is against the sanctity of life.
I read Matth 12 and asked how would Jesus react today in a life threatening medical situation?
We also talked about why ultraorthodox jews accept a blood transfusion because in there eyes it is not nourishment.
He said that there are several interpretations of the scriptures. So I stressed that I feel the interpretation of the organisation is wrong.
During the discussion he said once "but you can't be a witness and think like this."
I asked him how he would react if the fds would in future allow the components? He said he can't answer that question.
I explained that I don't want to refuse a treatment which might be accepted in the future by the fds. Moreover I have to follow my conscience and not an interpretation of men.
He couldn't answer why white blood cells are prohibited whereas they are in mothers milk.
He answered why large fractions like hemoglobin is permitted and smaller components are prohibited just by saying "because it is a fraction."
He was worried because I don't find a blood donation is against the bible.
He kind of understood that I feel this is hypocritical to just take it but not give it. This he couldn't deny.
I made it clear that I have to follow my conscience and it would mean for me to be bloodguilty if I refused life saving treatment.
Finally he mentioned 2 points.
We can not be eating from table of demons (as I was eating from that table).
We should not be driven by doubts (I said I have no doubts about that topic).
He mentioned that I want a guarantee for life but instead we should lay our lives into Jehovah's hands.
He will talk to the other elders about our talk.
Hi Daniel1555, Nice job of reverse witnessing. If he doesn't want to DA or DF you, he may not want to meet with you anymore. If he does want to meet with you with another elder and asks "Do you believe that the FDS is Jehovah's channel to men?", you will know for sure that he wants to DF you.
Peace be with you and everyone, who you love,
"I asked him how he would react if the fds would in future allow the components? He said he can't answer that question."- why not? perhaps it is too terrible for him to think about? perhaps he would find himself 'bloodguilty' by guilting people into killing themselves and their families due to lack of blood?
Well done Daniel1555.
Your reasoning points were sound and it's very difficult to argue against with anything other than "trust God" since the whole doctrine is illogical.
I hope for your sake the elders basically leave you alone however be aware that they may be on the lookout for reasons to escalate things.
Bear the following in mind:
- Never do anything that could be construed as promoting beliefs contrary to accepted doctrine. They will have you up on an apostacy charge quicker than you can blink.
- You can only disassociate yourself by your actions if you unrepentantly accepted blood. Simply saying that you would consider accepting blood is not the same thing. It's not an action.
- The information about the sanction is ONLY in the elders' book. It's not published anywhere else so unless an elder has shown you the info then you as a non elder should not know about it. To discipline a person who cannot know what the sanction is is grossly unfair and can be used to gain leverage if push comes to shove.
The definition of Apostacy from the Flock book is as follows:
16. Apostasy: Apostasy is a standing away true worship! a falling away, defection, rebellion, abandonment. It includes the following:
- Celebrating false religious holidays: (Ex. 4-6; Jer. 7:16·19) Not all holidays involve false religion and require judidal action
- Participation in interfaith activities: (2 Cor6:14, 15 1 17, 18) Apostate acts include bowing before altars and images and sharing in religious songs and prayers.-Rev. 18:2,4
- Deliberately spreading teachings contrary to Bible truth as taught by Jehovah's Witnesses: (Acts 21:21, ftn.; 2 John 7, 9, 10) Any with sincere doubts should be helped. Firm, loving counsel should be given. (2 Tim. 2: 16-19, 23-26; Jude 22, 23) If one obstinately is speaking about or deliberately spreading false teachings, this may be or may lead to apostasy. If there is no response after a first and a second admonition, a judidal committee should be formed. - Titus 3:10, 11; w89 10/1 p. 19; w86 4/1 pp. 30-31; w86 3/15 p. 15.
- Causing divisions and promoting sects: This would be deliberate action disrupting the unity of the congregation or undermining the confidence of the brothers in Jehovah's arrangement. It may involve or lead to apostasy.-Rom. 16:17, 18; Titus 3:10, 11; it-2 p. 886.
- Continuing in employment that makes one an accomplice to or a promoter of false
- worship would subiect one to disfellowshipping after being allowed a reasonable amount of
- time, perhaps up to six months, to make the needed adjustments.-w99 4/15 pp. 28-30; km 9/76 pp. 3-6.
- The practice of spiritism.-Deut. 18:9-13; 1 Cor. 10:21/ 22; Gal. 5:20.
- Idolatry: (1 Cor. 6:9, 10; 10:14) Idolatry includes the use of images, including pictures, in false religious worship.
Keep us posted as to how things pan out.
Thanks very much for your points. I am curious if they leave me like this. Maybe another elder will urge them to talk to me again this time by 2 elders, I don't know. I am also wondering if to have the conviction of unrepentantly taking blood would be action enough to disassociate by action. I think I will soon find out.
Be careful. The loving and kind nes will cut you off too. When people are honestly presented with things they simply cannot answer due to the level of illogical acceptance required....it becomes uncomfortable. It can sometimes be easier then to revert to "waiting on Jehovah" or "protect the congregation".......the modes of coping really.
So just handle it with kid gloves.
I'm curious, did you mention white blood cells being forbidden is even a lesser fraction of Albumin which is accepted? I always go with that one, because it is just impossible. Blood is a bunch of plasma with stuff in in. Some of that stuff is forbidden, some of it is cool by the slave. Who determines it and why? Its just nuts!
How does one eat at the table of demons, exactly?