Honest survey question on effectiveness of 'apostacy'

by Simon 178 Replies latest jw friends

  • mamochan13

    As a born-in, super-dub (pioneer), I was aware of apostates and their efforts. Seeing the book 30 Years a Watchtower Slave brought feelings of horror - it was evil. I'd see protesters and look at them with scorn.

    I left largely due to cruel things done to me, but I still believed it was the truth for many years afterwards. It wasn't until I started university and had a whole new world of critical thinking opened up to me that I started to really look at what I was raised to believe. Then I went searching for help - first found Randy's site (factual information), then this forum (community support/information). This was pre-youtube, of course, but I would not have received any value from videos/websites until I had already left the religion and was in the process of "awake"ening.

    I agree that JWs wake up for many reasons and in their own time. My impression is that the primary need is support for exiting JWs - whether it is factual or emotional support. In my own case, no video or protest or anti-WT activism would have made a difference. It actually made me want to defend the JWs. Even after starting to wake up, I still found much of the activism offensive. I didn't see the activism as against the WT organization, but as an attempt to smear a whole group of innocent people, because I took the view that most JWs are good people who honestly believe they have the truth and want to help others.

    And I still have issues with some of the more radical activism. I think it makes all of us look bad and simply reinforces the image of the evil apostate in the minds of current JWs.

    I'm trying to think how I feel when I come across protests or videos about Mormons or Scientology or Moonies or whatever. I don't know that the activism in itself changes my opinion, but it might spur me to do further research. Which could be a good thing.

  • Las Malvinas son Argentinas
    Las Malvinas son Argentinas

    Well, as I remember it, at the time you chose to use language that you always are fond of using when you don't agree with something. By that I mean you like to call things 'poop', 'diarrhea', 'turds', 'toilet', et al. You said something to the effect of that the advice we were giving was worth about as much as the 'turds' you flushed down the toilet. Advice which turned out to not be as 'poopy' as you originally thought. As for the issue you seem to take issue with now (which you initially only referred to as turds), you are suggesting that we 'draw a line' as to making accusations of criminal conduct online. To borrow from your very own poop library, bullshit! I came on JWN for the freedom to express myself. What AAWA was doing with regards to the president was WRONG, and many here were RIGHT in taking issue with it here. As I said before, the PM route didn't work with these people and inevitably this subject was bound to come up. I live my life to a certain moral principle, and being in the profession that I am in, such a stupid thing as using an alias on incorporation documents was something that needed to be hashed out. I don't desire or need you to set imaginary boundaries for me. It's not your place, and really isn't worth the turd that I am about to flush down my toilet right now.

  • James Brown
    James Brown

    I come to this site because I spent 30 years of my life in the mnd control cult and I like to

    here how it has effected ohters and how they are dealing with it.

    I didn't need anyone to tell me the truth was not the truth.

    I lived through 1976 and saw all the havoc 75 brought to people.

    It was difficult and unpleasant to be a JW, I was looking for a way out since I started to crawl.

    Fortunately they hung themselves in my eyes with 1975.

    That and reading the bible cover to cover showed me truth is not the truth.

    But there are all kinds of people in this world maybe some can be recruited out of the tower.

    I think those that spend a lot of time trying to informed the uninformed are just like they were when they were

    JW's, they have just jumped out of the frying pan into the fire, they like to tell others what they should think

    and believe and why.

    I was never like that. I never wanted to be a JW. I was born in the tower because of a wackadoodle mother.

    I never wanted to be a JW. I was always embarrased and ashamed of it.

  • James Brown
    James Brown

    I don't know why I cant format my paragraphs on this site anymore.

    It doesnt work with internet explorer, google chrome or Firefox.

  • 144001


    I note that instead of confronting the issue that was raised, you are now trying to personally attack me; I talk about poop, etc. Given your vicious attack on Cedars, I'm not surprised. Nevertheless, nothing justifies the low level that you stooped to in your quest to destroy Cedars at all costs. You weren't hurt by anything he did, much less the alleged improprieties in the organizational documents of AAWA.

    You are certainly entitled to your opinion of your conduct, and are also entitled to ignore what other people think about what you did. I am entitled to my opinion as well. I thought your making of criminal allegations against Cedars was extremely vindictive and unwarranted, and indicative of a cold heart. My opinion remains unchanged by anything you've posted here, including your irrelevant personal attack on me.

  • mind blown
    mind blown

    I'm sure if Cedars had been sympathic from the very begining to the "outting" of innocents while under his charge as President, he would have not become an adversary to some of us in the XJW community. Period. He had the nerve to claim that A*** was the voice for the XJW community. It was not. Especially, the chosen personality which the A*** choose to take on which many of us thought was DANGEROUS! Yes, dangerous because Cedars is/was reflecting badly on the XJW community.

    If he was not caring or gentle with the outting, why on earth would someone be kind enough to send him a PM regarding the issue. He had no heart in the matter, at least not until we finally pulled an apology from him, and that wasn't even a personal one.

    Some here think because he has a site with great articles is enough. It's not. There's more involved to gain respect of a community.

    Even with him posting the recent blurb regarding JWN. Really? One thing is for sure .....he's action speaks volumes......

    Some are sooooooooooooo naive......

  • Las Malvinas son Argentinas
    Las Malvinas son Argentinas

    While you're making notes, please make a note of this: I just quoted what you said to me in the original thread, that our advice was analagous to the 'turds you flushed down the toilet'? Now tell me. How can I be 'personally attacking' you when all I was doing was quoting you? Look at that a little more deeper before you go the 'ad hominem' route. When these 'allegations' were first made, you told us all that they were worthles as your turds were. OK. Your opinion, great to know. A bit childish and silly, but I got your point. Point: You thought our opinion that AAWA being in violation of the law for having a president using an alias was worthless because none of us were Arizona lawyers. Counterpoint: You said nothing about the tone or the allegations aired online then. You for some reason have come out of nowhere to complain about that now. What started off as 'turds' becomes now a pious lecture in what is your ex-JW ideal of togetherness and politeness. You also keep pushing the fact that because I was not personally affronted in the AAWA debacle, I should therefore not have any right to voice my concerns. Is this the kind of psuedo-logic you care to employ against me? You have no right to take these rights away from me here. You are nothing on this board. I take it you think it was impolite. OK, maybe, probably. In case you didn't notice, a lot of things were impolite about that period, and especially any and everything eminating from Cedars. Cedars destroyed himself. I did not have to 'bring him down'. To be blunt here, your opinion doesn't mean [poop] to me either. You speak about much of what you do not know and your posts are quite pedestrian in nature. If that's a personal attack then so be it. You keep droning on about my 'conduct', I should at least have the right to respond to your lame contemplations.

  • 144001


    More personal attacks. Why am I not surprised? You are one of the meanest, vindictive persons on this forum. You continue to try to change the subject, because you are unable to justify the depths you stooped to in your quest to harm Cedars.

    What you did was wrong, notwithstanding your effort to change the subject.

  • adamah

    144.001 said-

    I enjoy reading your posts, as they are usually well reasoned, so I am surprised at your use of false analogy. Accusing someone of committing a crime is not analogous to criticizing someone for making that accusation. One act could result in legal consequences, the other act could never have that result.

    Unfortunately, a few self-identified "activists" have repeatedly shown open contempt for legalities in the past when contacted via PM. It becomes worrisome when they openly advocate on public forums that OTHERS do the same, ironically also relying on similar "ends-justified" arguments such as yours above, as if their cause of taking down the Borg warrants "special pleading", with them operating "above the law". Hence the many superhero references, or Don Quixote "tilting at windmills" thing: it's well-deserved, IMO, since the egos are so thick you can cut them with a knife. It's why it was refreshing to see Cedars post an honest and open video recently; that's the kind of approach that's needed, a calm gentle message.

    The problem is that the adversial approach (associated with the likes of Rick Fearon) is playing right into the hands of the GB, since remember the GB's definition of an apostate is an 'angry, hate-filled mentally-diseased EX-JW who will stop at NOTHING by lying and breaking laws in order to discredit Jehovah's Earthly Organization".

    So it's hard to fathom how some of these so-called "activists" can be so dense as to think they're actually working AGAINST the GB by LIVING UP to the very expectations that R&F JWs are trained to be on the lookout to avoid? How exactly does becoming the living embodiment of the GB stereotype work AGAINST them, since it only serves to bolster the doubting JW's defense mechanisms, CONFIRMING the claims that the GB makes about apostates?

    Simply put, it doesn't, and using that approach is as ill-advised as say, the Germans deciding to attack the French Maginot Line head-on, rather than simply bypassing it and going around it, coming back after it's been abandoned.

    That's why some have questioned the motives of some of these so-called "activists", since they seem to get some kind of perverse ego gratification from all the attention; it's is quite inconsistent with simply wanting to assist others to be free from a cult by learning TTATT. I've even openly asked whether some might actually be JW operatives, out to discredit apostates, as if to confirm the sentiment expressed by SBF on his departure (likely a forced confession made to avoid shunning, after being caught in the act), "there truly is nothing out there". I've since concluded that yes, in fact they actually might just be that socially-inept, likely from having been in the JWs for a bit too long or during their critical developmental period of childhood.

    If any of you watched that Herman Munster video I posted ("if your religion is like a bad lover", on the last page: i posted it again here, below), it sums up the situation quite well at the end: "People don't need a Savior; they need to feel safe".


    It's not about donning super-hero costumes and high-fiving each other for the many e-mails you've received as a result of engaging in "life-saving work" (that kind of thinking is likely a remnant of JW's telling themselves THEY'RE engaging in a life-saving work by knocking on doors: same BS, just vanilla, instead of chocolate). People need to get over themselves and get a handle on their egos, since as demonstrated in this thread, JWs have to be RECEPTIVE to leaving the JWs (whether a forced exit via DFing or having a crisis of conscience), just like they had to be receptive to join. It's not about some powerful individual toppling an Evil Empire thru the sheer power of his charisma, but it's simply about wanting to help others, since you cannot FORCE anyone to accept what they don't want to accept.

    Similarly, no one also can FORCE anyone to change their tactics, just like none of us can (or, more accurately, SHOULD) force anyone to act under anything but their own power. But everyone who engages in the effort should understand that lying and deceiving with fantastic made-up and implausible claims (eg "WT is on the verge of bankruptcy", or the "Anon has a pedophile list", etc smacks of the type of 'yellow journalism' that the National Inquirer would be ashamed to publish) is only likely to back-fire, as it will simply reinforce the GB stereotype and thus make ALL ex-JWs look bad. Not everyone has to take the tact of Paul's JWfacts.com, but kudos to him for setting the bar as high as he has, presenting info in an accurate, honest manner. That should be the benchmark for all ex-JWs.

    So like it or not, we're all in the same boat, but it's high-time some individuals recognize it is a group effort, and not all about them always acting out, as if demanding to be the center of attention as they cycle between their various mood states.


  • problemaddict

    Personal experience varies. That is why all approaches work. This is like a faith v works arguement, or a chicken v eg argument.

    One does not exist without the other. Do well written articles on sites that drive content related to refuting WT claims work? Do Dateline episodes work? Do you tube videos work? Yes on some people. No on others. Maybe it starts a doubt in the mind (as it did with me), maybe it confirms a doubt already had. Without activism and KIND ex JW's I would probably not be here.

    So both are needed. Support and "we understnad", as well as a more challenging face that gives peoples natural curiosity and desire to defend their faith, and exposure to thoughts we know they are not allowed to think.

    It all works, it all doesn't work.

    Cedars, I support you for the most part, but your twitter was an unwelcome jab I don't think has any real purpose other than a personal relief perhaps? It still bothers me the ex-JW community is so dysfunctional. But que sera sera.

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