Honest survey question on effectiveness of 'apostacy'

by Simon 178 Replies latest jw friends

  • Simon

    The laughable thing in all this is Cedars real identity is so easy to find out. It's not like he's some mastermind that no one can trace. He was creeping on our linked-in profiles ... why would he need to be doing that I wonder?

    But he got so threatening and pissy with me when just the country he was in was linked to his Cedars persona. That was while the whole Facebook identity outing was going on and they were refusing to protect other people's identities and putting them at risk.

    Even better, when I agreed to remove the country label that bothered him so much he then thought it was a form of cover-up that equated to revealing real names and that he had something to threaten me with as leverage he could use.

    What a wanker.

  • adamah

    144,001 said-

    If they (the WTBTS) thought they had something, and ran with it, it could have resulted in trouble for Cedars, even if that risk was small. By the intentional act of publicly accusing him of criminal conduct on a forum that you knew or should have known is likely to be monitored by the Watcthower, you did in fact intentionally try to harm him.

    So lemme get this straight:

    Per 144,00, all the JWN 'worker' bees are expected to defend the 'queen bee'?

    (or maybe I should've used the 'JWN peanut gallery' metaphor, last used in another thread which devolved into one of those, "Hey everyone, look at me!!" attention-seeking threads?)

    The problem is, the 'queen bee' has repeatedly unnecessarily exposed herself to some ill-defined "harm", and doesn't seem too concerned about it, not to do so repeatedly.

    Cedars has hardly shied away from seeking public attention (while supposedly being a 'fader', and not even OUT of the Org!): setting up a site, posting videos on YouTube, posting WT-owned I.P. on JWN, or even participating in the whole "Anon hacked into a WT servers and has the encrypted pedofile list" attention-seeking campaign (the thread where he claimed to be in possession of hacked encrypted files from WT).

    So no sirree, that's not demonstrating a willingness to break laws, or the willingness to create the appearance of illegality and impropriety, not to mention showing a TOTAL lack of concern for anyone else by failing to consider the HUGE implications of what unintended effects such a disclosure would have on victims AND the wrongly accused, alike. And given the FB forced outing scandal that occurred later, it turns out that such traits (eg a complete unwillingness to consider consequences of actions) wasn't unfounded. Dude is/was a loose cannon.

    Of course, like any other attention-seeking ill-conceived scheme, these usually had all the tell-tale signs of tomfoolery written all over them, just like all the other Don Quixote campaigns dreamed up in the fertile imaginations of immature young males, driven by fantasies and delusions of grandiosity. It's a long history of such efforts that makes one wonder if someone isn't intentionally trying to be the living embodiment of the GB's caricature, but whatev... Regardless, it's still delusional game, and in the end, only the FACTS matter: JWs don't have "the Truth", and the ex-JW community does. It's really as simple as that, and ALL the rest is noise that only lowers the 'signal-to-noise' ratio.

    As stated by others, if the WT truly wanted to 'out' him or others, or take out their YT account(s) in vengeance to silence their critics (which is more likely a vestige of JW's notorious "persecution complex" thinking, IMO), they could've done so in a heart-beat eg via filing DMCA copyright claims over their rightful intellectual property which IS being used without their permission (and claiming 'fair use' is a DEFENSE; it's not PERMISSION given from the IP owner to use their property).

    Regardless, I highly doubt an ex-JW whining on a YouTube video is even a blip on the GB's radar; NONE of us do, except collectively as 'apostates'. That's why I say that we're all in the same boat, whether we like it or not.

    LMsA said-

    What kind of logic is that? So someone needs to be personally aggrieved by something to have the right to speak out about it? Glad you weren't around during the Holocaust.

    I agree: incredibly weak argument.

    A moment's lucid thought should make one realize that per that concept, anyone who's not personally harmed by sexual abuse committed by JW pedophiles has no right to speak out against it? Well, you might run that one past all those who protest on behalf of the Conti case and similar victims, too (including Cedars, Barbara Anderson, etc)?

    What an archaic sense of justice, since retribution isn't the exclusive domain of the victim or their family (it reminds me of how God commanded humans to handle bloodshed and criminal justice in ancient Isreal, with the avenger chasing after the killer of his kin; I wrote about ancient Israel's system of criminal justice here, in an article on my blog about Cain's killing of Abel).

    144,001 said-

    I do agree that we need to clean up the garbage that some in the ex-JW community choose to spread and which reflects poorly upon all of us, but I do not believe that we need to go all out to inflict damage upon the individuals we have issues with. The question I raise is, where do we draw the line on what sort of conduct is appropriate to respond to ex-JW activity that we are offended by because we believe it to be dishonest, etc.? Is it OK to make a real effort to harm someone, because we don't believe in what they have to say, or their method of saying it?

    First off, I see no evidence of "harm" that you repeatedly cite: has someone let their hatred spill over into real life, by perhaps stalking and threatening someone?

    Freedom of speech and open discourse on a public forum leads some people to assume a level of importance to their "work" which just isn't present, IMO. This is (yet) another tempest in a teapot, since you haven't made a compelling case for ACTUAL damage having been done, only POTENTIAL harm. Of course, the criminal and civil courts don't handle "potential" damages but ACTUAL damages that can be shown to have occurred; and if such behavior occurs, I'll be first to join you in criticizing anyone who engages in it.

    And NO, that's not contradictory with what I wrote above, since again, the methods used by apostates should be above reproach in order to avoid the taint of living up to the GB's straw-man stereotype.

    In the past, Cedars has exhibited all the clinical hallmarks of an attention-seeking narcissist, who, while in the manic phase is able to output some decent work by taking on the Sisypean delusional task of toppling the WT (that is, as long as the reader doesn't perform any due diligence by digging too deep to confirm, AKA fact-checking!), but then he inevitably cycles into depression mode, exhibiting all the traits of paranoia (i.e. over-reacting and lashing out at every perceived slight (real or not), inability to accept responsibility for his own mistakes, eg the "WT is hacking our sites!" claim from a few months ago, when it finally came out someone had failed to apply a software update for a known vulnerability that had been issued to fix the problem).

    IMO, this is (yet) another tempest in a tea-pot centered around a drama queen extraordinare.



    Vampire 1: The Narcissist.

    This vampire is grandiose, self-important, attention hogging, and hungry for admiration. She is often charming and intelligent–until her guru status is threatened.

    Self-defense tips: Enjoy her good qualities, but keep your expectations realistic. Because her motto is “me-first,” getting angry or stating your needs won’t phase her. To get her cooperation, show how your request satisfies her self-interest.

    I apologize to JWN for feeding his ego here, since the way to deal with such people is outlined above. Cedars is capable of doing some good work, yes, but he needs to continue to mature and GROW as a person in order to be a solid asset to the ex-JW community (and now that he's a father-to-be, hopefully the experience will force him into confronting from issues, rather than hiding and running from them). As stated above, Paul from jwfacts comes to mind as a great benchmark for everyone engaging in the effort, so if in doubt, ask yourself, "Hmm, what would Paul do?"




    Still Kicking and Screaming on Another Forum..

    Astonishing to see the depths Simon is sinking to in painting me as the evil villain after I left/was banned from JWN.

    In his latest rant he labels me a "wanker" and says, "He was creeping on our linked-in profiles ... why would he need to be doing that I wonder?" -

    For the record, I've never set foot on Linked-In. My wife uses it, not me. If he's referring to the time it was discovered that a...ll the JWN profiles were showing people's countries, this was brought to my attention by another JWN poster, and I let Simon know.

    During the AAWA debacle, my wife and I drew it to his attention that it was rather hypocritical of him to be pursuing us so vehemently and non-constructively over privacy issues when for a period he was displaying everyone's countries, and not even telling them about it once he'd fixed the problem. This, it seems, was being "threatening and pissy."

    Apparently almost anything I have done in my short apostate career is open to being portrayed as some sort of dastardly scheme by Simon and his minions. The hatred and vitriol is jaw-dropping, and I tried to be nice in my final post.

    It's a shame the Ex-JW community can be like this, and I continue to struggle to get my head round it. It would be nice to think they'll leave me alone now that I've left the forum, but based on this evidence,

    I will Continue to be a Greater Enemy to JWN than Watchtower......Cedars

    "Don (Cedars) Quixote battling an Imaginary Enemy..

    ........................The Evil JWN WindMill..


    .......................................................................  photo mutley-ani1.gif...OUTLAW

  • Simon

    Wait, I have minions? Like in the movie? Those guys are awesome !!

    "I will Continue to be a Greater Enemy to JWN than Watchtower......Cedars"

    And doesn't that just show the true colors of the man! (as if we didn't know). As I've said before, it's just like the Jihadists turning on their own people when they don't think they are supporting them enough.

    Cedars really doesn't like anyone disagreeing with him and standing up to him. Actually, it's not even that - it's anyone who doesn't immediately jump up and down and applaud his every utterance.

    Yes I called him a wanker - because he said as much himself in his "Cedars revealed" post (where he didn't reveal his identity at all).

    Listen to me Cedars - I've put up with enough of your shit to last a lifetime. Stop hiding behind your wife's skirts and man-up. Whether it was her account or yours, the fact is you were creeping around trying to find information on ME and MY WIFE and I believe that was purely and simply for SPITE because you're a low life little maggot.

    Whatever reason would there be for some Croatian Translation Service to suddenly be interested in us otherwise? Please come up with a plausible excuse that you think will fly.

    Yes, you drew the country being displayed to my attention which I doubt was any sort of big deal to anyone - but hypocritical? me?

    Suddenly, the man who demands endless evidence before he'll accept there was an issue with facebook and can't see the need to take action on something for weeks is demanding immediate action when there is the slight whiff of a chance that just the COUNTRY he is in would be revealed? That you think showing the country someone is in at all equates with revealing their actual real facebook identiy is laughable.

    YOU are the hypocrite pal. Everyone can see it.

  • 3rdgen

    The name calling is the weakest argument in favor of apostasy imo. I am so glad that when I first visited this site 2years ago I didn't happen to run across any heated threads. Instead i read personal accounts of mistreatment by the WTBT$ as well as thoughtful discussions of policys and doctrines. Along with COC and Barbara Anderson and Hassan, JWN helped us find the info that we were PERSONALLY interested in or was our pet peeve. However, many like me, miss the sense of community we left behind and find JWN a great help to feel a part of a group with common problems and sometimes common interests. The kind support we give those with doubts or problems beats all the blustering as far as effective persuation goes.

  • Scott77
    "...My firm had several private investigators. Sometimes another lawyer would reveal too much private info about adversaries. It bothered me. For instance, if a law student bothered a client, they knew the grades, where the student sat in each class, and details of any romantic life. They may be sitting on the info..."
    Band on the Run

    Very interesting. Now I know why opposition research is so common during presidential campaigns. Knowing the weakenesses and strengths of your opponent certain does play a significant advantage.


  • adamah

    "I will Continue to be a Greater Enemy to JWN than Watchtower......Cedars"

    Why does this mental image immediately come to mind?

    Simon said- As I've said before, it's just like the Jihadists turning on their own people when they don't think they are supporting them enough.

    Its' an all-too-common phenomena, eg where so-called "victim's advocacy groups" will get bent out of shape if anyone dares to say anything that deviates from their approach, or attack anyone that fails to offer profuse praise for their efforts; God help anyone who doesn't stay in lock-step, or fails to adopt their same fanatical fervor and intensity.

    Richard Dawkins was recently lambasted by "child abuse advocacy groups" in the UK for daring to label non-sexual groping as 'mild pedophilia', and the groups predictably got wound up after he dared infringe on "their" territory (as discussed in this thread from a few months ago):


    Unfortunately, dogmatic emotionally-drinking thinking is found, not only amongst the JWs (and thus found in ex-JWs, or soon-to-be-ex-JWs), but anywhere humans form into groups (although some groups manage to keep it under check more than others).

  • Ruby456

    a composite John Cedars - that would explain a lot of things. I don't buy that the English John Cedars is solely responsible for all that has happend in the last couple years. How could one person develop such a huge grudge against jwn and against Simon over such a short period of time? And if there is actually a young man, in his thirities, who has a pregnant wife, then imo it is more plausible that he is only a part of the composite John Cedars, and if that is the case it is particularly sad that he is falling/being thrown under the bus. How cynical that would be if it was true?

    what if the composite John Cedars is a creation of the people who set out to devise what became AAWA? this may sound far fetched but for me it is more far fetched to imagine that one young englishman in his thirties is responsible for the whole John Cedars phenomenon.

    If we are going to go down the route that one person is indeed responsible for the entire phenomenon then wouldn't it make more sense to look in the direction of someone older, someone who has published imaginative books against the society, someone who has been working in the activist field for a long period of time (much longer than this unfortuante but gifted, young man who is fighting his demons at the moment) and someone who perhaps has a history of believing that jwn does not do enough activism kind of activity (whatever that is)? several people come to mind (although only one of them has written imaginative books) who would fit the bill and they are all prominent members of AAWA but not a young man in his thirties who is fresh on the activist scene and who has bipolar disorder to boot.

  • besty

    wow this topic went off the tracks...

    I will Continue to be a Greater Enemy to JWN than Watchtower. .....Cedars

    I read this to be Cedars perception of how JWN sees him, rather than a statement of intent on his part.

    Anyways - I'd prefer we all get along, but I also celebrate the freedom to disagree :-)

  • Ruby456

    so do I besty - prefer to get along and also celebrate the freedom to disagree. thats why I am a great supporter of justificatory universalism in which no one person speaks for all but which also recognises when dialogue has been abandoned and cajoling and coercion are put in its place.

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