Honest survey question on effectiveness of 'apostacy'

by Simon 178 Replies latest jw friends

  • Scott77
    Accusing him of criminal conduct for issues relating to the organizational documents of AAWA was mean-spirited, vindictive, and entirely unprovoked, since you were not personally affected by anything that Cedars did.

    Thank you 144001. Hi Las Malvinas son Argentinas., Can please you tell us if your post in this this instance was like shedding crocodile tears for a supposed 'harm'? How on earth can someone who has stated is not a US Citizen, is South American person supposedly speak English and at the sametime, behave as as if she or he is living in the United States? Are you really for real or someone else?


  • Scott77
    I don't want the WT destroyed
    Band on the Run

    Hi BOTN,

    Are you a Watchtower apologest? Do you want the Watchtower to keep staying on and continues its evil destruction on the families and the people?


  • Simon

    Then how can Cedars suffer any harm? He's simply any anonymous pseudonym. The legal issue was not his but Richard whatshisface that swore he lived in his house.

  • Simon

    Scott77: stop with the ridiculous hyperbole

  • 144001

    <<<< It also betrays your own inner thoughts that if it would be OK for such a person to do so, then what I was saying in forum couldn't have been all that bad to begin with. >>>>

    You know my thoughts? Are you hearing voices too?

    <<<< So it's wrong for me to try to harm him, but it's perfectly alright with you if someone his organisation has outed had done the same thing?>>>

    No, it's wrong in either instance. However, since I wasn't harmed by what he did, I do not have the moral authority to judge someone who was. And you certainly did not have the moral authority to support your deliberate effort to harm Cedars, since like me, you were not harmed by him.

  • Las Malvinas son Argentinas
    Las Malvinas son Argentinas

    I guess one cannot be from South America and speak English at native or near native fluency.

    No, I didn't say I could read your thoughts. You betrayed your inner thoughts by hinting at what you were thinking and your overall thought processes.

    OK, so it's wrong in either instance. But whereas you'd have the moral authority to judge me, you'd unilaterally pass at the chance of judging someone else who had more of a reason. Isn't deciding who gets the blame and who does for doing the exact same thing being presumptuous? Whoever gave you that authority?

    I think I've heard it all about efforts to harm him. He goes by an alias and had a thick cloud around him, which until recently he did everything to perpetuate. It was said on a related thread that only a handful of trusted people had his phone number and knew who he was. Even today after he has 'come out', no one can really identify him. So let's say the WT got wind of it here that he wasn't real but was the president of AAWA. Then let's say that they filed a complaint and started legal proceedings against AAWA. One thing leads to another and one of their demands is "Who is John Cedars?'. Guess what? No one outside his inner circle could identify him. No one is going to go get him. They don't have a special FBI plane that is going to go scoop an anonymous poster who started up an anti-WT group and incorporated it. The only person who'd really be on the hook would be Kelly, and I'd say that he'd deserve it for filing false info to begin with. I don't and didn't wish that calamity to befall them, yet I wouldn't have a whole lot of sympathy for them either. It's like the friend who was nabbed for shoplifting. I'm not going to flag down a security officer, but at the same time she deserves what is coming. All this bickering is clouding the fact that what I and other accused him of happened to be correct. If it wasn't then I'd be among those who'd admit they thought wrong.

    But we weren't wrong. As it happened, AAWA figured it out and thought enough of it to post about it on their site that all board members were real. But it's the messenger, the message, and the impolite way it was being conveyed.

  • 144001


    I think this dialogue has become very circular, with both of us repeating the same things, in different ways. Good night!

  • factfinder

    My jw brother steers clear of anything he suspects is negative towards the gb, organization, f&ds, etc.

    He is extremly close minded. Does he have any doubts about anything? I don't know. He would not talk to me about it.

    He will not give one minute to anyone he thinks of as "apostate'.

    So how can I help him discover the TATT? I can't can I?

    It all comes down to having doubts and seeing that things are not right in the congregation. This is what led me to be willing to explore sites such as jwn and jwfacts.

    So Simon, again, I agree with you. It is good to have information available for witnesses when they are ready to explore it, to help them deal with their guilt and fear and to have information presented clearly that helps them to understand the tatt.

    Extreme activists fit what the wts warns against. As a witness I paid no attention to such ones and I know my brother does not either.

    On a side note regarding Cedars:

    He unfriended me on FB because I mentioned to him that there were decreases of publishers worldwide during both 1977 and 1978, but that did not spell the end of the wts. On the contrary, just a few years later there was a new peak of publishers followed by years of rapid growth.

    He accused me of being "stupid" and a "watchtower apologist". Whether he misunderstood my point, I do not know, but I was very disappointed by his actions and I realize now he is an egotist with a personal vendetta against the wts and strongly dislikes anyone who does not share all of his views.

  • Fernando

    I am truly saddened by Cedar's awesome strengths and talents being so completely undermined by his weaknesses (blinding pride and a low tolerance and patience threshold). This is not to say that others, myself included, are not similarly challeged by our weaknesses.

    As Simon says there is always the possibility of maturing and becoming less self-centred - a psychological detox - something we all need after years of toxic Watchtower propaganda.

    If Cedars (and the rest of us) could channel a balanced mix of Gandhi, Mandela and Luther, we too could rewrite history and change the world.

    The OP really resonated with me, and it would be great if we could forget our egos and agendas and get back on topic.

    Maybe we need to recognise that we all go through various phases and thinking on our journey out of the cult - and that we do mature and become more rational over time. It is also impossible for all to be on the same page at the same time.

    What about celebrating what we have in common and being more tolerant and accepting of inevitable differences?

  • Band on the Run
    Band on the Run

    I do not want to freak people out. When I took a recent continuing legal education class, one lawyer stayed behind to ask the Lexis rep about a database. Four of us overheard the conversation and stopped in our tracks. Lexis is always promoting its services. We never heard that there were certain databases available only to lawyers. The Lexis rep confirmed that there were several and not well publicized. It is a grueling process to get permission to use such information. One must write a detailed statement of why you need the info without revealing any client confidences. Affidavits must be filed. In this case, the database was the only way to track down a kidnapped child's location.

    I asked the lawyer if he would use it. He said no even though it would help his client. The lawyer's data becomes part of the database. We were chilled. I would never assume that if the WT thought John Cedars was a true threat rather than a nuisance, they could not penetrate his identity. It would be expensive for them to do so. My firm had several private investigators. Sometimes another lawyer would reveal too much private info about adversaries. It bothered me. For instance, if a law student bothered a client, they knew the grades, where the student sat in each class, and details of any romantic life. They may be sitting on the info. I don't know how they view threats.

    It seems unlikely to me that they would pay the money or bother with every apostate. These commercial databases regulate access. You need exceptinal circumstances to gain entry. If you abuse it, they can report you to your state bar for license revocation. You can't file hundreds of requests. The law is so solidly on the WT side that they might see Cedars' org as a joke. I never want to know details. The entire group that day listened with upset stomachs. Certainly, any one with FBI or other security experience knows how to discover this info. Journalists seem to know, too.

    Fake names are not enough. There must be a way to create a secure false persona. I don't know where you learn how to do it. Criminals seem to know. After Snowden's revelations concerning NSA spying on citizens, perhaps we should all learn.

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