Trying to overcome my homophobia.

by Julia Orwell 71 Replies latest jw friends

  • fulltimestudent

    Eeew i don't. I don't even like to see hetero kissing. It's a private matter imo.

    Depends doesn't it. When I was a kid, public kissing was a no-no! Today, its everywhere. Not just the obvious places, TV, films, books etc, but in real life - while waiting for people at Sydney's main subway station, its surprising how many people greet each other with a romantic kiss (often prolonged). And, increasingly I note guys kissing guys. Not just the European cheek kiss, but full on lips to lips, and for all I know, tongue to tongue.

    Years ago, I met a JW brother who'd been to Paris on a business trip. He saw public kissing as part of the predicted moral decline in the time of the end, (part of the sign) and commented how, at Paris Metro stations, there were so many couples who were giving each other prolonged erotic kisses, including he said, in shocked, hushed tones - MEN ! The end can't be far away, he advised. The Bible foretells it (misquoting Romans 1).

  • fulltimestudent

    Joe Hoover isn't coming back to life to slay anyone,

    Not sure, which Joe Hoover, your talking about. Was it this one? Of course, he wasnt a Joe, but he was a John, literally! This is him in 1936. Don't you agree he's got 'gay' written all over him

    FBI director J Edgar Hoover aims machine gun

    As head of the FBI, J. Edgar Hoover, thought his job involved keeping a dirt file on everyone. The only secret is, Did he masturbate as he read his 'secret files.' Particularly the ones involving guy+ guy action.

    This extract by his biographer, is from the English Guardian (The English, of course, never anything underhanded like Hoover)


    The secret life of J Edgar Hoover
    For half a century, the FBI director waged war on homosexuals, black people and communists. Now, a controversial film by Clint Eastwood is set to reveal some of the explosive truth about him. Here, his biographer Anthony Summers tells all

    When he died. Nixon is supposed to have remarked: "Jesus Christ! That old c*cksucker!" But Nixon (of all people) knew how dangerous his dirt files could have been. (Hey, the mind boggles! Imagine Nixon and his secret service contingent conducting a raid on J.Edgar's office to get their hands on Hoover's dirt files).

    But there's no need for imagination, just imagine the truth. During the terriible era when the McCarthy witchhunts were underway (and, I'm speaking of the propensity of McCarthy and his sidekick Roy Cohn to target gay men in public office) the biggest possible target, Hoover himself held the best cards. He would have had the evidence to demonstrate that Roy Cohn himself, was gay!

    Here's an extract from the English Guardian newspaper.

    Hoover himself, meanwhile, had a personal secret that – in his era – could have destroyed him if revealed. Clint Eastwood referred to it this year before the launch of his movie, when he assured the J Edgar Hoover Foundation that J Edgar would not "portray an open homosexual relationship" between Hoover and his long-time male companion, Clyde Tolson.

    Eastwood stretched the truth. Though there is just one passionate kiss between Leonardo DiCaprio and Armie Hammer, the two actors portraying them in the movie, the relationship with Tolson is a central theme. In real life, all Washington knew was that the pair dined daily together, vacationed together, did everything but move in together, and the whispers flew. When a magazine article in the 1930s referred to Hoover's "mincing" gait, and a diplomat commented on his "conspicuous perfume", Hoover struck back. He gathered derogatory information on the offending journalist, and asserted – falsely – that he did not use perfume. Real information on the Hoover-Tolson relationship surfaced only long after both men were dead, during research for my book.

    A surprising find was the account by Luisa Stuart, once a celebrated model, tracked down because she featured in a droll photograph taken with Hoover and Tolson one New Year's Eve in the late 1930s at the Stork Club – the place to be seen in New York at the time. In the photo, Hoover is shown holding his hands up as Stuart, armed with a toy shotgun, "threatens" him. Later that night, in the dark of a limousine when they left the club, she remembered: "I noticed they were holding hands all the way, just sitting there talking and holding hands with each other… I was so young and those were different times. But I'd never seen two men holding hands."

    Joseph Shimon, a former Washington police inspector, recalled a taxi driver reporting the pair had been "kissing and ass-grabbing" during a cab journey. Harry Hay, founder of America's first gay rights group, remembered that on vacation in California, in "a circle in which they didn't have people who weren't gay… They were nodded together as lovers."

    The Eastwood movie includes a bizarre scene that depicts Hoover, after his mother's death, donning one of her dresses. It is a nod towards allegations I first reported, that he on occasion cross-dressed. I had information from three sources, two men who said an "easily recognisable" photograph of Hoover in an evening gown circulated in the gay community in 1948, and an account by a millionaire's former wife of secret sex parties that she claimed to have witnessed in the late 50s. Hoover, the woman said, had been "dressed like an old flapper, like you see on old tintypes".

    Bill Clinton, who as president in 1993 was mulling over who to appoint as FBI Director, thought the cross-dressing reports were hilarious. "It's going to be hard," he grinned during a speech at a press function, "to fill J Edgar Hoover's… pumps." That I published such allegations at all, however, to this day draws roars of fury from old Hoover loyalists.

    Other accounts of the Director's alleged sexual activity, if true, would certainly have destroyed him had they become public. A former Bureau inspector and trusted associate named Jimmy Corcoran said years later that Hoover, youthful at the time, had once asked him to deal with a serious "problem". He had been arrested on sex charges involving a young man during a trip to New Orleans. Corcoran, who had powerful contacts in the state, said he intervened to hush the matter up.

    There is, too, a claim that as late as 1969, when Hoover was in his early 70s, he dallied with teenage boys during his habitual summer break in California. An element of corroboration came from Don Smith, an officer on the Los Angeles police vice squad, who told me of interviews he conducted with youngsters during a paedophile investigation. "The kids," Smith said, "brought up several famous names, including those of Hoover and his sidekick".

    I quote all this 'sh*t' to demonstrate that men who are attracted to men are ubiquitous in public life, there are far more of them than anyone realises- which simply means that Kinsey's report (suggesting as high as 20%, but usually quoted as 10%) likely underestimated the extent of men who like to have sex with men (the common idea is, that men know what men like)

    Go back to Plato's 'Symposium' - he pictures the leading citizens of Athens, who've left their wives at home (that was woman's place- and quite likely they were having it off with the yong household slaves) and were out at a drinking party, lying on couches (as was the common custom in the Mediterranean), with their boyfriends, talking about real love.

    Here in Australia, in regard to former Prime Ministers, here are four men men who are whispered about, who likely had sex with another man at some point in their lives.


    Harold Holt (according to his widow- who saw him as bi-sexual)


    William McMahon - rather an open secret


    Bob Hawke - back in his heavy drinking days, he is rumoured to have had a very heavy 'crush'

    on a beautiful young man (young - i.e. in his 20s) - this according to a guy close to the top of the ALP party structure.





    This one is censored. A really famous name in Aussie politics. I've heard it from two sources.

    From, members of the influential eastern suburbs ( a wealthy part of sydney) gay clique.

    From a member of his household staff.

  • KWJoe

    where I can't swing a dead cat without hitting a few of us

  • ShirleyW

    What I find interesting about the JWs is that they don't condone homosexuality, but I'm sure every congregation has a few members that were so obviously gay, but when the gossiping Dubs get together and discuss Bro or Sis so and so, and how they 99 percent appear to be playing for the other team, someone always says "well, Jehovah will clean up his organization in due time", so in a way they are condoning it.

  • DJS

    All I can say is out with the old and in with the new. Will and Grace was my favorite show; damned funny and well written. The sooner the mindset regarding the LGBT community changes from whatever it is/was to acceptance (and we can finally quit talking about it) the better. The younger generation has this one right. T-Rex is extinct for a reason. I'm proud that Americans have changed a LOT on this subject but more change is needed.

    I'm looking forward to the day when we don't discuss the gender, race or sexual preference of our: teachers, presidents, mayors, clerics. Because we simply don't care.

  • Julia Orwell
    Julia Orwell

    I'm sure I knew brothers who were either latent homosexuals or camp as a row of tents. A shame they could never really be themselves.

  • never a jw
    never a jw


    You are sick. Two women going at it get you excited? Let me fix you. Try two hot, naked and very horny women, and put yourself right in between them. Now that's even better. Isn't it?

  • yadda yadda 2
    yadda yadda 2

    I don't care what anyone says, homosexuality is an unnatural thing and a certain degree of so-called 'homophobia' (gay agenda propaganda term, not a proper scientific or medical term) is totally natural.

  • never a jw
    never a jw


    I am Hispanic from Mexico and grew up in a culture where being homophobic to various degrees was (maybe still is) the norm. I am 48 and proudly can tell you that that homophobia is quickly subsiding thanks to this website in general, but more particularly thanks to a very moving post of a young JW who came out of the closet here, but feared disappointing his elder father and his entire family and congregation if he ever admitted his sexual orientation. He was forced to repressed his true feelings and live a life he didn't want to live just to accomodate the beliefs of others. This post opened my eyes to the cruelty to which we subject gay people, especially young ones, with our rejection of their perfectly natural feeling of love towards others. I have admitted multiple times that, based on the natural caring behavior towards others, women are better people than men. I will go farther and say homosexual males are better people than heterosexual males.

  • fulltimestudent

    more particularly thanks to a very moving post of a young JW who came out of the closet here, but feared disappointing his elder father and his entire family and congregation if he ever admitted his sexual orientation. He was forced to repressed his true feelings and live a life he didn't want to live just to accomodate the beliefs of others. This post opened my eyes to the cruelty to which we subject gay people, especially young ones, with our rejection of their perfectly natural feeling of love towards others.

    A good point, never a jw.

    But there is an even worse consequence: When a gay male is 'forced' by social pressure by people like yadda yadda 2, to live an 'unnatural' (to him) life, and he subsequently marries, we then see social problems compounded. At some point the women he marries is likely to get hurt. If not by her (gay) husband's much lower level of sexual interest in her, then certainly at some other point when her husband may be exposed as 'gay,' or when he gets sick of living a 'false' life. If there are children they may lose a father in the subsequent divorce.

    I've discussed this with my GAYXJW friend. He's also older (and divorced). When young, the social pressure that then existed against gay people was enormous. The police would engage in entrapment raids and if caught in such a raid, you faced not just the probability of a jail sentence, but exposure to your parents or wife or whoever. That pressure caused him huge emotional stress. Whatever way he turned, he told me, his life seemed trapped by 'straight bastards.'

    Then he was contacted by the witnesses, and a study was started. This seemed to him, to be the perfect answer. He quotes the first "Make Sure Of All Things." that had a section on homosexuality and assured everyone that God could and would change you to straight. He placed himself in Jehovah's hands, forced himself to look at girls and not boys, prayed and prayed and prayed. I wont go in to the likely psychological processes at work in his life, but after about 5-6 years he felt he had changed, and even felt that he could get married ( I think he was as horny as hell, and just thought he could get by in marriage - sorry mate, if you happen to hear about this). And, he did get married.

    But the marriage bed crap did not work out. His body did not do what his mind wanted it to do, and he speaks of the long nights in cold wakefulness as he and his wife grew apart over his lack of interest in her body.

    Its all a long time ago for him, but the memory of those emotionally cold nights is still with him.

    Does anyone really want to condemn naturally gay men to that?

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