Why Eve sinned (WT 8/2013) (page 4)

cofty

There simply was no hope, for there was nothing being offered.

For 200 000 years your god watched suffering on an unimaginable scale. He is a moral monster.

I'm still just commenting on this thread, because I want to make something clear.

I totally understand the need — yes, NEED — to make an attempt at uniting evolution and the A&E story.
If there is no A&E and first sin — Jesus' sacrifice is moot. Useless.
All the while the evidence for evolution is undeniable.

But what am trying to do here is understand how one can rationalize such idea presented in the OP.
It seems obvious that this idea is not working — for a plethora of reasons and logic...
Not only is it not working, but there is no root reference to anything that would make it worthy of discussing.

No reference, no evidence, no logic... this makes this hypothesis unfounded.

That's my problem here.

I am not undermining EdenOne's work on the subject.
I'm arguing that it's not a viable path of reasoning.

braincleaned

May I ask where do you get the origin of this idea of "sonship"? And why was a sonship needed?

It seems to me this would make the whole idea of salvation redundant.
Jehovah could have simply created this 'new' couple perfect with no need to test them — but then again, why would he have permitted this couple to mix with the "imperfect" branches of humans.

EdenOne

Cofty: You start with theistic evolution until Homo sapiens finally appear. God sits and watches 200 000 years of suffering even though these early humans had all the potential for anguish, despair and for learning that we have. After a couple of hundred millennia god grows to like these plucky humans and decides to make a new pair of them from scratch.

You pretty much nailed my scenario this far.

Cofty: Complete with highly evolved brains these two shiney new humans tell god to go f### himself and use their god-given curiosity to investigate the world. God smites them and they go off and breed with the prototype humans resulting in all of us.

I don't think that Adam and Eve were any more "evolved" than the best Homo Sapiens of their time. Although they were a new direct creation from God, their design was a slightly improved copy of the existing specimens of their time. Perhaps their bodies had slight improvements designed to make them live longer, but I don't see anywhere in the Bible that God promised them that they would live forever on earth. I don't see in the account of Genesis a full-blown ouright rebellion of Adam and Eve. Satan, on the other hand, is a crafty rebel with a hidden agenda. Adam and Eve were just curious brats, trying to take a peek into that spiritual realm that they knew existed but they couldn't see. I don't think they were fully aware of the consequences their disobedience would have, despite the stern warning from God. Jehovah didn't take it lightly and made good on his threat. They died on the same day - not physically, because that wasn't the type of death that God had in mind, but God cut the spiritual ties of sonship with them. Naturally He kept on taking care of them, and they kept on worshipping their God; this can be seen from the fact that Eve, when gave birth to Cain, said:"I produced a son with the help of Jehovah!". However, the first generation after Adam and Eve went on to interbreed with the other existing humans - perhaps any trace of their DNA fingerprint got lost over time, only the geneology from Adam until Abraham got recorded and preserved for future memory.

Eden

EdenOne

Cofty: For 200 000 years your god watched suffering on an unimaginable scale. He is a moral monster.

For millions of years God watched predators eat prey using incredible violence and bloodbath. Why do you call it the 'natural cycle' and don't say that God is a moral monster based on THAT? If before Adam and Eve the human beings were no more than sophisticated animals, why would God be blamed for letting humans behave as any other animal would, live and die? You're using double standards here.

Eden

snare&racket

Eden one, your explination makes no sense, there was never a FIRST HUMAN just as there was no FIRST ITALIAN speaker, over time genes like words mutated.

Adam and Eve's parents were the same as Adam and Eve as were all the other human ancestors of the same species around them on earth at that time. You clearly don't understand evolution at all.

If you believe your god for some reason stepped in and somehow interrupted his evolutionary process and made some adjustments, a plan B to make up for a blip... that just doesn't make sense or compare to the Genesis account. He took a humanlike creature and then made him into modern humans.... but there were species almost identical to humans around that he ignored? You believe in evolution... what is more likely? We evolved from them as our DNA indicates or your mystial being whom you learned from a book that says NONE of this.

We are talking about NON HUMANS that had homes, tools, jewelry, burial traditions...... if you understand evolution, you know we evolved from THEM. Even their beliefs, tools, hunting etc came across the species too... or do you imagine gods new shiny creature was made, then went and learned these skills from the human like animals around him 6000 years ago? Early humans wiped out the neanderthals, who long predated them, none of this fits into your ideas at all.

You are clutching at straws trying to explan away something that has already been explained. You want to marry a book that you know is innacurate and unscientific because the idea of letting go of that book is so significant and scary...

The idea of animals eevolving without a loving fatherly onlooker may be frightening, but only if you consume watered down Americanised versions of bilical theology.

Evolution dictates survival by your ability to suit your enviroment......frightening?

What about a deity that wipes out most of the planet because he is dispeased? ..... Not frightening?

braincleaned

Okay, here's me trying to get my questions organized:

1) — What was the purpose of creating then testing these 'new' humans?

2) — Why would an Almighty God create a "slightly improved copy of the existing specimens of their time?"

3) — Was God's Only Son a corresponding ransom to a "slightly improved copy of the existing specimen of their time", or was he perfect?

4) — If you " don't think they were fully aware of the consequences their disobedience would have", where is God's love for punishing them, and all humanity along with them?

5) — About that, how does God's justice work, that the non-adamic descendants are under the curse of Adam's sin?

cofty

Homo sapiens for 200 000 years have experienced the same hopes and dreams that you do. They loved their families and suffered the same emotional pain and grief at their loss.

Life expectancy was very short, lives were brief and painful. Death came easily from starvation, predation, infection and numerous other means.

All that time your god did nothing. " There simply was no hope, for there was nothing being offered."

Your god is beneath my contempt.

braincleaned

// For millions of years God watched predators eat prey using incredible violence and bloodbath. Why do you call it the 'natural cycle' and don't say that God is a moral monster based on THAT?//

I actually DO say God is a moral monster based on that.

braincleaned

// Eden one, your explination makes no sense, there was never a FIRST HUMAN just as there was no FIRST ITALIAN speaker, over time genes like words mutated.//

Great anology!

Stealing this one... really good. Language is a great example of complex grammar coming from an evolution of language.

Why Eve sinned (WT 8/2013)

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