I try to simplify and distill things as much as possible - when discussing this kind of thing I find (sometimes) people with religious faith descend into what I would refer to (not trying to be disrespectful here) as 'babble'. It could be that they aren't very good at describing things, but it often comes across as just throwing alot of 'buzzwords' around in the effort to shroud faith in a cloud of mystery that only 'faithful' people will understand.
There hasn't been too much of this 'babble' in the thread so far, though it's started to go slightly in that direction with a few things - "We can ask for Truth though... we can ask for faith... and if we ask, if we knock and seek, then the door will be opened, the Father WILL answer. That is the promise."
I really am quite interested in getting a believers perspective of faith in simple understandable terms.
I understand, and I will try to keep things simple. I am not always the greatest at describing things either, and some things (like spiritual things) are harder to describe except in metaphor or example (like Agonos description of faith on the top of page three). But if you will bear with me, I will try to clarify if I am unclear.
I'm sensing that alot of religious peoples 'religious faith' is actually more of mix of faith and hope. Meaning that if their faith in something doesn't pan out there is always an excuse - an 'out'. To borrow an expression from the JW's - "Wait on Jehovah", "Pray incessently and Jehovah will answer", "Don't doubt God's ability".
It might be as you say, that a lot of religoius people's 'faith' is more about belief. (Fernando touched on this - belief from man; faith from God)
Belief can be "I think this is true; I hope this is true; I don't know for sure, but I believe (for whatever reason)"
Faith is the knowing; assurance; confidence... though a little doubt can weaken that faith, make a person doubt the promises of the One they have placed their faith in. Peter knew, and could see Christ walking on water, but fear caused him to doubt. Fear is what causes many people to doubt.
I'm not patient enough. I'm not praying enough. I have some small doubt inside that I'm barely aware of - always some escape clause for when faith doesn't work.
I can only speak for myself. I am aware of my own doubt, if I am doubting. I do try to be honest with myself. As for praying and patience... if I ask for something (understanding/answers/direction), then I just leave it to Him, knowing that He will answer... on His time and as He knows is best. Not that I have always been like that... there have been plenty of things that I have worried over and continued to ask about; but as He has taught me, I have come to trust in Him, completely. Maybe some 'get it' all at once, but me... I'm a slow and stubborn learner ; )
Even when you mentioned faith being a 'gift' from God. Meaning he may choose not to give it to you according to his whim. This strikes me as another escape clause.
Christ said that any who ask their Father the gift of the holy spirit, that He will not withhold that gift. Christ also said that he who knocks, the door will be opened to them. These are promises.
I understand what you are talking about... escape clause... but really it is people who put limitations and expectations on God and Truth. But if you have faith in someone, then you can leave a matter in their hands and know that it will be taken care of as they know best. But even some who think they want truth do not really want it... they want what they think truth should be (their expectations); but they do not want to hear something that goes against those. So they are unwilling to receive what they're asking for, and harden their hearts.
Harden their hearts... meaning they will not receive what they are hearing. They will not receive truth; they will stick to what they believe or want truth to be; rather than what truth IS, because the truth might reveal the darkness in them... so as to chase it away; or the truth might show them that they are part of a lie (like a particular religion that they have given their faith to instead of Christ), and they do not want to see it. If truth is something that someone does not want to hear, or is unwilling to hear, then they may harden their hearts against it. Like someone who really wants to be angry at someone, their hearts might be hard to hearing that they should forgive from their hearts, even if they have been wronged. Or someone who wants a promotion at work, so they harden their hearts to the truth that they are neglecting their family who is suffering at home.
The descritption, harden hearts... is quite apt. It is not scientific... but the feeling is exactly that. For me, some time ago, I asked if I could do something (i wont' reveal what). The moment I asked though, I immediately put up a wall (hardened my heart... and it felt like a hardening inside my chest, truly), because I did not want to hear any answer other than the one I WANTED. And I knew that my Lord WOULD answer me, and would give me the truth. I did not do it on purpose, but I recognized the moment I did it, because if felt just the same as it is described.
Like some of those who went to Christ... and asked what they needed to do... but turned away when Christ told them the truth, because His Truth (THE truth) was not what they wanted to hear.
Real life example:
After I woke up to the whole JW cult thing, I for a time tried to connect with God aside from the whole JW doctrines. I even avoided using the name Jehovah in case that was throwing a spanner in the works somehow. I tried praying to Jesus, tried praying to God - explained to God I don't really know the protocall anymore as I was confused as to what was true and what wasn't after the JW debacle - so please just accept my prayer even if I get some technicallities wrong.
All I really prayed for was for truth - as you mentioned. I just wanted to know what he wanted of me. I'm pretty sure I was praying with faith - not hope, as I was at a point that I just wanted TRUTH, didn't matter what it was.
I prayed my little heart out, repeatedly, for a long period. Over a long period.
I got nothing.
What am I missing?
But you're still here, Zound. You're life is not over, and you can still hear His answer.
I did the same thing; and you sound above the same as I sounded, when asking for truth, when begging to know what God wanted me to do.
But after I finished ranting... and pacing (I am NOT a patient person when something is bothering me)... I was in my car one day, the sun warm on my face, a nice breeze coming through the window, and I just stopped and handed everything over to God. I put myself in His hands, and felt peace wash over me. I asked Him to lead me wherever He wanted me to be, however long that took. No time limits. No paramaters. No conditions. I just continued to follow Christ as best as I could, and knew (in faith) that God would answer me.
He did... He led me to His Son. Just His Son.
And this promise from my Lord IS true, because He has kept it:
"If anyone loves me, they will follow my commands. My Father will love them, and we will come and make our home with them."
Christ IS the Truth.
Not man, not religion, not the bible. The TRUTH of GOD... is Christ. Listen to and follow HIM.
No one has to take my word for that... listen to Christ, even if you go first to what he is written to have said (try asking HIM to open your eyes and ears as you read); and ask Him.
One thing also that He asks... is that we 'eat his flesh and drink his blood' to have life in ourselves, because his flesh is real food and his blood real drink. Partaking of him is real spiritual food and spiritual drink (our daily bread); strengthening the spirit within us. Doing as he asks, shows you exercising your faith. Even if you are doing it on your own (as I do).
Peace to you,
tammy
