Article: It's Time to Outlaw Extreme Shunning in Modern Society

by AndersonsInfo 183 Replies latest watchtower beliefs

  • fizzywiglet
    fizzywiglet

    Appropriating someone's death to further your agenda? Using their name and selective quotes without ever knowing them (or without their surviving family/friends' approval?)

    Hella creepy. At least have the decency to use a pseudonym, if you're going to do something disgusting like that.

    I noticed that a family member commented in the comments section of that article about several material facts being misrepresented. And of course there's JBD, in all her tone-deaf glory, on it like a pit-bull, to shred a FAMILY MEMBER (without even knowing if this family member is a JW, or is telling the truth, or what).

    Just unbelievable. Really, really ugly and disappointing.

  • grumblecakes
    grumblecakes

    wait isnt being free to walk away from a religion without psychological torchure being inflicted part of our indiviual constitutional rights? (freedom of religion for each person)

  • Old Goat
    Old Goat

    The courts will not see, and have not seen shunning, as torture. You have the same constitutional right of free association as the Witnesses do. You have the right to leave. They have the right to avoid you like the plague. While it is their religious doctrine, it is also an individual right. Each Witness makes their own decision on what ever basis they choose. You may not like it, but it is their right. There are two constitutional issues here: Freedom of Religious conscience; freedom of association.

    By ranting and complaining, you show everyone that it works. You are punished. Why give them the joy? There is always the return smack: "Dear Mom and Dad. You know I love you endlessly. But I cannot associate with you as long as you follow the path of sin. Unkindness to family members is a sin. I pray that you repent."

    Another issue is this: Some of the behaviors that lead to disfellowshiping among JW's are horrendous, nasty, nauseating. Who in their right mind would associate with someone like that? No every "case" deserves contiuned family contact. I feel that way about my brother, now long gone out of the "truth." Good judgement - not religion - tells me that any contact with him would be like stepping in vomit. And you want a law that says I must be kind to a man who is a sore on the butt of humanity?

    And how would such a law be enforced. Suppose a law forbids organized shunning. Do you think it won't continue? All one has to assert is their personal freedom of association. "But, your honor, I don't want to associate with my uncle. He's a sexual devient who [insert act here]. I don't want my children or myself subjected to his life choices."

  • adamah
    adamah

    Old Goat said:

    And how would such a law be enforced?

    Heck, not only that: I wonder if the author considered how these laws would be WORDED? eg what exactly is "EXTREME shunning"? How does that differ from say, mild or moderate shunning? Is that like when the person turns their back COMPLETELY on someone (180 degrees), vs rotating their torso say, 90 degrees, or only averts their gaze? I mean, how do you quantify the level of shunning (i.e. misdemeanor vs felony shunning)?

    Would a person be LEGALLY REQUIRED to acknowledge another's existence by uttering a certain greeting ("Hello, X, I am acknowedging your existence and intrinsic worthiness as a fellow human being!") in order to avoid another person calling the Police to report them for "shunning"? Would an excuse of "But your Honor, I didn't SEE them!" serve as a valid defense? Or would it be a ticket, and on what grounds would this be given? Would a Shun Cop need to witness the crime, or would the claims of the victim suffice? Are we imagining a World where people get charged with 'felony snubbing'?

    See what I'm getting at? It's COMPLETELY impractical to implement, EVEN IF there was the political will-power to pass such a law (and as stated, it would be the kiss of death for a politician to vote in support of such a MASSIVE intrusion into personal liberties).

    Someone didn't think about the pesky little details of what they were suggesting, which isn't all that surprising: the majoirty of those who are shunned after DF/DA likely shunned someone else when THEY were in, and hence are trapped in the cycle of demanding protection from social boo-boohs from a God or Nanny state; they not likely willing to look in the mirror, and that keeps them trapped in a vicious cycle of seeing themselves as victims (in this case, of shunning).

    Let's give the author (Dick, was it?) credit they weren't just TROLLING, i.e. putting inflammatory statements out there that are so outlandish as if to see what response they can elicit, as if they're making a wild suggestion that they don't actually believe would be effective.

    Meanwhile, shunning continues, and few are seemingly willing to stand up and admit their PAST CULPABILITY in shunning, an approach which actually IS more likely to be effective (and actually possibile to implement!) to bring about a CHANGE in shunning behavior.

    Does anyone (Cedars, perhaps? He's good with the video stuff....) want to make a 30-second public service message with music and graphics featuring close-ups of ex-JW members who are willing to go on camera and state they KNEW shunning was wrong and cruel while inside, but they went along anyway "to go along to get along"? After they were out, they realized it was WRONG, and only resulted in personal damage.

    Such confessions of participation in a flawed social control mechanism would liekly send a powerful message to anyone who's still trapped in: it's a revealing of their innermost thoughts and fears which they all think but cannot voice for themselves, and here it is being presented for all the Worldly people to see. It's honest, and more importantly: it's the TRUTH.

    The WT would have to modify their shunning policy or face the prospect of dying an accelerated death as more R&F refuse/defect, refusing to be victimized by a 3,000 yr old practice.

    The shunning problem is a MORAL issue, not a LEGAL issue: hence the solution requires educating the ones who most need to consider the self-inflicted damage that shunning causes, both potential recruits and the ones still in.

    Adam

  • LongHairGal
    LongHairGal

    OLD GOAT:

    Thanks, but I am well-aware that 18 is the age of majority.

    However, I have a friend who was blocked from evicting one of her (over age 18) sons after he took her to court.

  • Pistoff
    Pistoff

    So to ask for the end of a crippling practice like shunning makes Barb Anderson Joe Stalin?

    That is so over the top I don't know what I can say that isn't insulting.

    The call for an end to shunning is reasonable; it will never be illegal, obviously.

    But the WT is adept at evading the law when it comes to shielding pedophiles; their behavior may change now that the practice is costing them.

    The call for a change in shunning brings this issue into the open, like their practice of shielding pedophiles, and hopefully public awareness and discussion will bring changes that laws couldn't stop anyway.

  • Pistoff
    Pistoff
    Appropriating someone's death to further your agenda? Using their name and selective quotes without ever knowing them (or without their surviving family/friends' approval?)

    How is that issue not also Eric Reeder's issue? This issue was critical to his emotional health.

    I personally know of at least 3 people close to me who seriously considered suicide while df'd.

    Shunning is cruel and it's effects are permanent; many who are df'd never get over the emotional damage, even if they get reinstated.

    Yes, churches have the constitutional right to do it. Is it right? Absolutely not; and in the WT, the shunning is institutional, NOT an individual choice.

    But to disfellowship and shun a minor should be outlawed outright; it is emotional abuse that is somehow sanctioned by the US Constitution.

    The constitution does not allow churches to physically abuse minors by spanking or corporal punishment; people go to jail for it.

    And can we just stop pretending that the constitutional protection of religion in this country is 100% a good thing?

    Churches pay no taxes on property, a large financial burden on localities. The Catholic Church has amassed a huge fortune in real estate; even a two bit religion like the WT built up a billion dollar portfolio. Money begets power, and power corrupts up and down the line.

    Religious figures, pastors, priests and elders, are in a position of power. In business, if you abuse your position you pay for it, but not in religions apparently.

  • Chaserious
    Chaserious

    Pistoff, I don't think anyone questions Barb's intentions, but to be fair, the title of the thread does call to "outlaw" shunning. That seems clearly to state a belief that it should be illegal, not just calling for the end of the practice or bringing it into the open. I don't think you can blame those who value the freedoms of association and religion to find a call to "outlaw" it offensive.

  • Pistoff
    Pistoff

    From the mouth of Band on the Run:

    Mess with any religious doctrine and you will be sending an engraved invitation to the brightest, most intense lawyers in the world to come after you-Jewish lawyers.

    Add racial stereotyping to your résumé, impressive. What next, a bit about Jewish bankers?

    Do non-Jewish lawyers also have an interest in this event that the article does not ask for?

    You have no power against me. Nothing you can do will ever stop me. I will be the one to stop you .

    Freedom is never free. Freedom takes effort. I love freedom so much I am willing to die for it. Indeed, I broke my JW training and swore an oath to do so. Do you know that Irish lawyers were executed with their clients? Pakistanti laweyrs dropped everything to stop more tyranny. Don't think I do not know how to throw Molotov cocktails and what organs to go for to destroy you.

    I will personally be the one to alert them .

    Really, what are you on about? Re-read the damn article, NOT written by Barb Anderson; it calls for an end to shunning as groups like the witnesses practice, a reasonable idea. Not all things have to be made illegal in order for civil societies to realize they should be abandoned.

    There are a few places in the world where your idea would work. The Taliban comes to my mind. Think of it - you are arguing what the 9/11 scum/zealots/rats/roaches believe. They slaughter more than three thousand people in lower NY alone. No one at the WTC makes routine decisions about Israel or whatever they were angry about it. The Pentagon is only the place where strategy is conceived. The basic orders come from the President and National Security Advisor. They were not near Donald Rumsfeld himself. No, they decided to destroy nice, ordinary Americans.

    Joe Stalin would love you. Every dictator any place would love you.

    Yeah, so this is such specious reasoning it has to be called out. The Taliban shoot girls for going to school, they beat women for showing an ankle and they kill women they suspect have had sex outside of marriage. Even if the article recommended legal action, it would be a government body regulating anti-social conduct, not one Abrahamic faith bombing another one.

    Maybe you are thinking of France, an advanced democracy, where they HAVE banned outward displays of religiosity, and the sky has not fallen.

    How about an apology, and clarification, to Barb for comparing her to Stalin, the Taliban and tyrants, all for posting an article?

  • Band on the Run
    Band on the Run

    Barbara,

    You do not know more about Bethel and the mind set than I do. Please,let us face reality. You are a horrible researcher. The Dateline piece could have been handled so m uch b etter by many people on this forum. So you researched for the Writing Department! Well, countless people here did better and more complicated research to get high school and college degrees. You may think you are the last word on sophistication and WT. Let me inform you that you are not. This Barbara Anderson worship is disgusting.. She has done incredible things. Extraordinary things.

    Silent Lambs could be much better. I already know many posters here who could do Silent Lambs a million times better. It is not truly awful but it could be so much better with not much effort. No one knows everything. Let me post an article I wrote. It will take time to find an appropriate one b/c I am moving. Your writing is b.s. compared to my writing. Your analysis is clumsy. It is not only me.

    I am furious. Everyone here has strengths. We all have weakness. Unique, powerful insights and God help us all flaws. Never follow leaders. Don't worship former JWs because they founded Silent Lambs or made it on Dateline for a few, fleeting moments. The very ones who are so impressed by what no person with power would be impressed with tend to be the very ones who could improve Silent Lambs to make it more effective.

    Unlike you, I know the WT backwards and forwards. You may think you know. Do you know how many thousands, perhaps hundreds of thousands of people, worked at Bethel in more important positions. Get Real. My father was not a clown. Furthermore, the research and writing at the WT is so deplorable I would never reveal that I was remotely near the place. Were you buddies with Hayden Covington? So many others here have closer and more extended experience.

    This sums up in a nutshell. People who leave the Witnesses, in general, are so traumatized that they will never trust another person about anything ever again. The person may have been present at unique moments in world history, studied something intensively for decades, be a partner at a large law firm in New York, practice medicine, travel the world doing hard core Biblical scholarship, no, ex-Witnesses of a mediocre background will never enhance their lives by listening and learning. Don't ever tell a JW that they will die if they do X. I am not the only member here who sees this pattern. You know some things well. Well, I personally know more things well.

    I could stop the Witnesses far better than you can. You have no idea what I know. Masses of others here can do. I've discussed it with them. You especially with your arrogance, give the WT even more power. Someone mentioned the ACLU. Well, who here knows exactly how to talk to ACLU lawyers and knows what to highlight in precisely the right voice to have them back off defending the Witnesses a bit? Not YOU. NEVER. The reality is that even with my personal friends and acquaintances, the ACLU will always defend the Witnesses. What I could do is soften the ardor a bit. Perhaps a little bit cuold make a big difference. I talk to the New York Times, Barbara. Rather than competing for who is the queen of the playground, why not celebrate our individual strengths and encourage each other.

    The power exists now. The problem is that the people who know what to do from life experience, education, and interests cannot stomach this mind set. People with true power realize their limitations. If you are a master of the universe in reality, you cannot always call in favors. When a truly bad experience happens, you call in favors and people drop their pressing matters to help your emergency only b/c you don't abuse your contacts/knowledge ever in real life. For once listen to me, lawyers, doctors, marketing professionals, admitting you were once a Witness will cause people to lost some respect for you. You should see the shocked faces and people fainting. Jesus Christ could make phone calls and with this "I know so little but I know all" attitude, the WT will only grow more powerful.

    Fortunately, the converse is true. Any lawyer, marketing expert, investment advisor that is a Jehovah's Witness also has this "I know so little but I know everything for all situations" mentality. This is their weak point. Not only I know but others here know how to bludgeon them b/c of this mentallity.They may think they are so bright. No, no matter your law school grades and whatever crap school would not kick you b/c you are dragging down the education of all other students, they are not bright or talented. This is their vulnerability. Law suits, mass organizations, demonstrations never will.

    Read any article or book concerning the 60s. Name any event in the 60s and I was not only there, I helped planned it or my friends planned it. We did millions of people protesting in NY, Boston, and DC. I once took over a college building. We hissed war criminals on their way to class. Please, I know the U.S. Senate and Congress buildings from high school. We held special brainstorming ideas with Nobel Laureates and ACLU super lawyers. It was in deadly earnest. Classmates and profs were arrested and went to jail. Dan Berrigan poured napalm on draft records and went to prison for a long time. We did Nelson Mandela. He was one our lead mentors. I wrote thousands of letters to public officials. The press was on our side. The future leaders of this country despise this country. It was the American Tianmen Square. We were near Civil War. No end to Viet Nam.

    Some seminary student came up with the best idea of all. It was called the Viet Nam Moratorium. Despite all the press and history books, the vast majority of students favored the Viet Nam War. I never met one in real life but accurate pollsters did. This relative nobody decided to show how the entire country was fed up. The concept was so simple. On October 15, all Americans, wherever they lived, would just walk out work, school, stop treating patients, stop architectual work, not chase criminals and walk out to the sidewalk or driveway for ten minutes. It was very risky. I was agitated. If no one walked out, the Viet Nam War would continue ever longer than before the protest. As the minute approached, my heart is beating so fast and hard. Well, as the second hand arrived, I was completely shocked. Americans every place from all walks of life had had enough. Millions walked out. Washington, DC realized their re-election was not certain. This worked better than any sit-in, teach=in, prison, etc.

    The elite of every country will walk out b/c they have privilege. The East Coast and California do not represent the country. When people in Kansas, Iowa, Georgia walk out, the lesson is taught.

    Stop insulting me. Perhaps this will be my last post b/c I am finally telling the truth. Don't follow me. Follow your cores. What does real life experience teach you? What I am saying is in all history books, all poli sci books, anthropolgy books. Read the New York Times or a basic newspaper. The headlines will inform you. Dateline - not so much. Watch Charlie Rose, Meet the Press. This is not advanced anything. Celebrate each other. The recent fiasco with Cedars and Barbara should have taught a powerful lesson that I predicted before it happened. Let me state why I respect Barbara so much, despite Silent Lambs and the posting of every lawsuit without merit, Barbara's gut told her to flee and save her reputation. Her gut is fantastic. Barbara does not know everything Witness. She does not know human nature. Any one here could do research for the Writing Department. You prob. could do it in high school.

    The thing to celebrate about Barbara is not her JW experience or her posts that drag down our cause. Barbara has a good gut! She is courageous. If I were in Barbara's shoes, I doubt my gut or judgment would be so good. Barbara is extraordinary. She does not know how to mess with JWs b/c she was in too long. She has no idea how the press or lawyers think. Others here do. Barbara's knowledge on some points is good. Her instincts and devotion should be celebrated more. We need Barbara. If some miracle happened, and this fake master of the universe mentality would stop and some more savvy people did some things, life would not be better. I alone could not make things better. Barbara's integrity would also need to be present.

    Believe me, I would rather be admired for my character, devotion, and judgment than a bunch of book knowledge. I care too deeply about stopping the WT to say silent any longer.

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