by AndersonsInfo 183 Replies latest watchtower beliefs
Under the US constitution it guarentees religious freedoms.
Yes, but the Eighth Amendment to the Constitution also states that cruel and unusual punishments shall not be inflicted upon a person. I do agree that it would be a very tough road to pursue with no guarantee of outcome, but if enough attention were garnered by people, a compromise may be eventually agreed upon which would be a good start.
Sorry. I do like being liked. Shunning is a religious doctrine. It should never be outlawed. As much as I hate the Witnesses, I will lead the charge to counter you. People will come out the woodword to trounce you. Indeed, I know the political reality and how power works. Mess with any religious doctrine and you will be sending an engraved invitation to the brightest, most intense lawyers in the world to come after you-Jewish lawyers. Anything that threatens any minority impacts them for a host of reasons.
No one here is ready to take on every Jewish lawyers in America. Great Britan's lawyers will turn on you. Indeed, most of the civil world.
Perhaps we should have a private conversation.
The answer to the Witnesses is never to become Stalin. When you become a censor, you are far more dangerous than some religion murdering people. Law will never be the answer. I try so hard to explain so many times.
Every person who has ever entered a church in their life will take baseball bats to beat you up, and properly so! Atheists will attack you. The WT is not a legal problem. No solution exists at law. You will lose every shred of credibility you have. Jay Lenon and David Letterman will make fun of you on national TV. Also, every existing Supreme Court justice and the dead ones now resurrected with anger will attack you. Geo. Washington, John Adams, Benjamin Franklin, Alexander Hamilton, Thomas Jefferson, John Jay James Madison (Mr. Const'n himself) will rise from the dead.
I understand the impulse. Mockery, word of mouth,, etc. Indeed, just live your routine daily life and talk to people with out becoming dramatic and expressing your rage is the way to go. You can post what you want. I don't own the forum. There are so many people I respect here who are clueless about power.
Frankly, doing Dateline was amazing. Yet I know who do Dateline, Charlile Rose, all the time. Particularly for a former Witness at Bethel, it was incredible. I am so impressed. You have no power against me. Nothing you can do will ever stop me. I will be the one to stop you.
Freedom is never free. Freedom takes effort. I love freedom so much I am willing to die for it. Indeed, I broke my JW training and swore an oath to do so. Do you know that Irish lawyers were executed with their clients? Pakistanti laweyrs dropped everything to stop more tyranny. Don't think I do not know how to throw Molotov cocktails and what organs to go for to destroy you.You don't understand it but you are talking about destroying every freedom gained since the Magna Carta was signed. The entire English speaking world will condemn you.
I will personally be the one to altert them. There are an infiinite number of ways to accomplish your goal in reality. Any xxxxx fool can write an article. The standards today are at an all time low. The Internet is even worse. Not every utterance against the Witnesses is worthy. My sense from being here is that most people here are very decent.
It is sad that such decent people are ready to sacrifice such more important values than the sorrow of disfellowshiping. Yes, shunning is bad. I agree. I will side with the shunners before I will side with the tyrants. Not tyrants. TYRANTS! DICTATORS. DESTROYERS OF ALL THINGS DECENT. NAZIS. BOLSHEVIKS. THE CULTURAL REVOLUTION., etc. THE INQUISTION.
No, this is where the line is drawn in the sand. I don't want to play Paul Revere. This happens to frequently for me. Any article against the Witnesses by some Nazi, bozo, hate monger or person who never ever heard of free speech and free religion is not good for posting. Every law suit against the Witnesses does not have merit.
BA:
As others have said, I also don't see this happening in the U.S.
However, the recent publicity about celebrities fleeing Scientology because of disgust for similar practices might cause a whole lot of light to be shined on secretive sects and their dirty laundry!
I'm the first one to agree that banning shunning in the US, Europe, the UK, etc., is next to impossible. Shunning is the result of disfellowshipping. Disfellowshipping is a religious doctrine that secular courts cannot intrude upon. However, I’m delighted with Richard Kelly's article no matter how impossible it appears right now for shunning to be outlawed. Kelly’s article and other similar articles serve to inform, not just to demand. This type of narrative attracts hungry-for-news media. That’s what we want folks – attention from big town press; small town press; local TV; national TV, even from Internet blogs, etc. To my way of thinking Richard’s article informs the public of the ramifications of JWs shunning practice; no matter if the information reaches ten or thousands of people, the efforts to inform will make a difference eventually.
My view is if governments won't do something about this damaging belief (because at this point in time they can't), it will be our public outcry that will change the way people view JWs. Factual, truthful negative information about the JW organization definitely is in order because it causes extreme distaste for the religion which results in fewer converts. No amount of sweet-talking words expressed by JWs or by their media representatives will sway an informed public to let down their guard when encountering JWs when they call, or in business, or play.
We've all seen huge corporations change policy or position when the public avoids their products due to negative media exposure. It works and it will work for us. We have the truth on our side about the harm JWs cause and telling it from the mountains will eventually move mountains. We will win, of this I'm convinced. It was nearly twenty years ago that I learned about the WT's pedophile cover-up. I've seen WT officials unmoved by the cries of victims of JW molesters, not showing interest in changing their outdated harmful religious rules no matter what harm these caused. Looking back, it seemed impossible to do anything about it to many of us; yet, in time, victims and their supporters began to win the battle against the WT and their foolish two-witness stand that they still hang onto.
Talking about WT's pedophile protection policies to the media, attorneys, teachers, politicians, and using every other available way to inform the public has resulted in not a chastened WT, but in a religious organization sliding into oblivion in the Western world, a world that wants nothing to do with the likes of an organization that takes punitive action against their own members who want to be free from their own oppressive religion.
I understand why some posters are not hopeful that anything can be done to dislodge Goliath WT from the control and power they have over members demanding obedience to the shunning rules. Nevertheless, be patient, Rome didn’t fall in a day. As a reminder, it takes time to unseat dictators, but it happens and will happen to the WTS, the “Theocratic” dictator that has cunningly taken away precious freedoms of millions. The outcry towards any dictatorial movement is small in the beginning, but as more and more citizens in a dictatorship see and personally feel the heavy boots of oppression, they join in and the chorus and actions of the many eventually bears fruitage. That’s what’s happening in the WT dictatorship – an increase from within in the numbers of WT disbelievers, detractors, and critics. And on the outside, the voices of many hecklers of the WT movement are using the Internet to shame JWs. Over one-hundred and thirty-three years is enough of WT leaders’ repression, tyranny and coercion. They’ve had their day and now it’s our day to demand justice by using our voices to inform.
Thank you Barbara for sharing with us this interesting article!
The WTBTS hates bad publicity that could bring reproach on Jehovahs name. By making the problem of disfellowshipping/shunning to public view it could become an embarrasment to them especially if we slowly, kindly let our neigbors and friends know what will happen if they become JWs. This policy which in thee past was easy to keep from most outsiders, they didn't have much to worry about but now everything is out there for anyone to see. While I was in the workforce I had many non believers ask me why their JW family would no longer associate and most were glad to know the reason. Of Course this may just be hopeful thinking on my part but I still let people know about the shunning policy.
Thank you, Barb!
Truth is great and will prevail if left to herself; that she is the proper and sufficient
antagonist to error, and has nothing to fear from the conflict unless by human
interposition disarmed of her natural weapons, free argument and debate;
errors ceasing to be dangerous when it is permitted freely to contradict
them.
Thomas Jefferson
Barbara,
From my true heart with the utmost respect, the addition of "now" shows you are either delusions or you live outside the reach of any life form on Star Trek. Not in the future, not in thousands of years, not in a million years, not whenever Christ decides to appear, not in an atheist eternity.
Americans never realize how we owe almost all our basic freedoms to Engllish Const'l History. Const'n need not be written. The First Amendment may have been novel in 1789. It is not novel now in any part of the world. Every decent country that anyone who reads this form would want ot livein or visit on vacation has freedom of speech and religion guaratnees. Notion of speech may vary a little bit but the notion of freedom of religion will never die. Too many people study basic history globally.Secularization has occurred. In fact, almost every country has even stronger guarantees than we do.
There are a few places in the world where your idea would work. The Taliban comes to my mind. Think of it - you are arguing what the 9/11 scum/zealots/rats/roaches believe. They slaughter more than three thousand people in lower NY alone. No one at the WTC makes routine decisions about Israel or whatever they were angry about it. The Pentagon is only the place where strategy is conceived. The basic orders come from the President and National Security Advisor. They were not near Donald Rumsfeld himself. No, they decided to destroy nice, ordinary Americans.
Joe Stalin would love you. Every dictator any place would love you.
This happens to my narrow area of expertise. I have never posted anything here that is worth a counterargument. Out of all topics on the face of the earth, this is the one I know with breadth and depth, thanks to the Witnesses.
What you want was only feasible during the darkest days of human history. Not even J. Edgar Hoover would embrace it. Think far right fascist- no, they would not. I know who would - people who lynch in hoods and Nazis. I would rather be a Witness.
I've studied and discussed global examples of decent, good-hearted reformers. Often, in their zeal to improve present life, they impose far more brutal conditions. People beg for the old boss. I get on my knees and pray, "We Don't Get Fooled Again." I was a clueless teenager when Pete Townshend touched my soul. Listen to the WHO or Bob Dylan if you have never before this. No. Townshend was not a sophisticated super rock star when he wrote Don't Get Fooled Again.
Step back from the precipice. Relax. Meet people who have nothing to do with Jehovah's Witnesses. You are too decent for what you are advocating. Also, you are doing a very poor job of advocating. This is NOT you. I wonder if something happened recently. There is far, far worse than the WT on the earth. Many countries, churches, oppressed people's heaven would be the WT. If Jack the Ripper hated the WT is not reason to love Jack the Ripper.
Band on the Run: I admit that you are a knowledgeable person, but you know nothing about the internal happenings within the WT or what's happening in the internal affairs of critics of the WT like me. You only damage your credibility when you say I have "delusions" etc. People on this board know what I'm about and what I've done for years. You don't know me and you sure don't know what I know which I don’t talk about on this board. I wrote what I did from personal knowledge and to give hope to people who feel hopeless because they believe that WT always wins and that they will never see their loved ones again due to shunning. You tear down our work with your comments but you have freedom of speech as I have. Say what you will, but I know that you are wrong and I want the posters and lurkers on the board to know that you are wrong. Just wait a while and you'll see why I say that.
Personally, I don't think you understand what my post was all about. I'm advocating spreading true information to undo false information. Everyone knows the words of Jesus, that "Truth will set you free." Learning the truth about an organization I loved was shocking, but it gave me freedoms that I didn't even know I lost, the freedom of thought and expression. Sure, religion will always be around and I sure don't mind. I don't even care if WT stays around; but I do care that their criminal policies have ruined people's lives. As for me and my view of religion - I don't care if you want to worship your light pole, but when you take that pole out of the ground and beat me over the head with it because I won't worship that pole the way you want me to do, then that's harm and I won't stand for that. The WT never hurt me. Eventually, I lost some of my family because I stood up to the WT, but I didn't enter this fight because of any other reason than of a breaking heart after listening to victims of child abuse. When the WT changes their ways, I'll stop informing people of what they do directly and indirectly to their members in the name of God, if I might point that out.
Have a good day.
Barbara
I agree with gma-tired2. This is practical. Because one day, I was taking Bible study to a Medical Practitioner. He was very much interested in the "truth." Whole family was attending the study. Six month went by. One day after the study, in our informal chat during tea session, somehow I inadvertently mentioned about disfellowshipping arragement! That was the end of Bible study with that family.
This shows giving publicity to their public shunning is the only solution. Let those who are already JWs be there as they deserve to be there. At least new ones can be made aware of.
