Eldenno - I am delighted the borg are succeeding in getting members and interested persons to use the internet more.
"The truth about the truth" - TTATT - is only a click away...
DID YOU KNOW the latest Brooklyn sell-offs will take total Watchtower earnings to $804 MILLION since 2004?
by cedars 73 Replies latest jw friends
-
-
Eldenno
@Cedars
Its not my intention to start a discussion about how many pages for the Watchtower and Awake were printed in 2005 compared with how many are printed now. That is not the point. The question is,... is this publishing giant expanding,.. is their product line increasing,.. is their global reach becoming bigger?
This question cant be answered by simply counting pages of only two magazines. If you, for example, type ´ The Future of Paper in this Digital World´ in Google you get dozens of studies and conclusions. One conclusion is obvious. The publishing world is changing at rapid speed. Publishers and news corporations are struggling to find an answer to the new digital challenge that is facing them.
A recent study (dec 2012 by the Pew Research Center) in the US made clear that during 2012 33% of the Americans had an Ereader or used a tablet to read digital content instead of paper versions.
So everyone has to adapt to this digital age, this is also why i mentioned their website in my earlier post. Simply because they started publishing a lot on there (and will continue to do so) that is not published on paper anymore. They shifted their focus towards online content. They make readers of their paper versions aware of this additional content online and so far they seem to be very succesful in doing so.
Furthermore with reducing the nr of pages of the magazines they made it possible to print more copies in more languages without the need for additional resources. So although the total nr of pages was reduced, the potential reach of these magazines increased drastically and will continue to do so (print run and total nr of copies will keep increasing as well as total nr of languages in which they are being translated).
I also stated in my previous post that more brochures and tracts are being released (all without the need for more paper, ink or energy). If you look at the total nr of published ´products´ in 2013 you will see that they did produce more stuff already than they did in previous years.
So where you see a reduction or sign that there is a shortfall somewhere along the line, i just see a publishing giant that is adapting to a new digital reality with a shifted focus towards digital content and smart use of paper resources (that is printing more magazines, brochures, tracts and books with less resources).
-
cedars
Eldenno
Its not my intention to start a discussion about how many pages for the Watchtower and Awake were printed in 2005 compared with how many are printed now. That is not the point.
But you said on the previous page that the Society is NOT reducing its printing operations. I have listened to your assertion, gone away and done some calculating, and can now prove that monthly magazine printing has reduced by about 37% since 2005. When faced with evidence that you are wrong, how do you respond? "That is not the point."
The question is,... is this publishing giant expanding,.. is their product line increasing,.. is their global reach becoming bigger?
Why is that now the question - just because you say it is? And no, the Society's global reach is quite clearly shrinking as evidenced by the falling number of branch offices worldwide. What you and Watchtower call "consolidation" I call "downsizing."
So everyone has to adapt to this digital age, this is also why i mentioned their website in my earlier post.
Oh without question the Society needs to adapt to the digital age - everyone does. The problem is the digital age poses more of a threat to the Society than you seem ready to admit. By encouraging people to use the internet, even if it is only to look at one website (JW.org), the Society exposes itself to the risk that a percentage of publishers will stray onto websites that tells the real truth about the organization, its dubious history, its failed prophecies and its damaging teachings.
Furthermore with reducing the nr of pages of the magazines they made it possible to print more copies in more languages without the need for additional resources.
Yes there's a flip side to everything, and the number of available languages has increased. But let's be realistic - the Society isn't reducing the amount of "spiritual food" just so it can print in more languages. Rather, the 37% reduction in monthly magazine printing is necessitated by the imbalance in contributions caused by stagnating publisher numbers in wealthy countries (with internet) and growing publisher numbers in poor countries (without).
I also stated in my previous post that more brochures and tracts are being released (all without the need for more paper, ink or energy). If you look at the total nr of published ´products´ in 2013 you will see that they did produce more stuff already than they did in previous years.
Again you make an assertion without offering any evidence. Your assertion is that the array of publications alone is greater now than it was "in previous years." Which "previous year" are you talking about? Where are your statistics? Can you quantify the number of publications on offer in that year versus the number of publications on offer now? Last time you made a baseless assertion I went to the trouble of going and doing my homework to prove you were wrong, only for you to dismiss my conclusions by saying "that is not the point." I'm therefore reticent to go through the process again with this latest claim.
If you want to argue a point, you must be prepared to back up your statement with evidence. I would suggest that the array of available printed material is similar now to the selection in 2005. If anything, certain brochures are being pulled from print to make way for new material - the "Should You Believe In The Trinity" brochure being just one example. Try ordering THAT brochure from your local literature desk. You will be in for a surprise.
So where you see a reduction or sign that there is a shortfall somewhere along the line, i just see a publishing giant that is adapting to a new digital reality with a shifted focus towards digital content and smart use of paper resources (that is printing more magazines, brochures, tracts and books with less resources)
But you overlook the fact that (1) the internet is not Watchtower's friend, and the Watchtower cannot take on the internet and win, (2) just because the Society is trying to "adapt" does not necessarily mean it is succeeding in doing so. The proof of the pudding is in the publisher numbers, which are stagnating (1.9% last year). And (3) the reduction in branches and printing operations is not in harmony with the organization's professed objectives to spread its "spiritual food at the proper time" in "all the inhabited earth." Not only is the amount of printed "spiritual food" being reduced, but the number of locations from which its dissemination can be organized is also being reduced. Evidence of God's backing? You decide.
Cedars
-
Eldenno
Cedars
But you said on the previous page that the Society is NOT reducing its printing operations. I have listened to your assertion, gone away and done some calculating, and can now prove that monthly magazine printing has reduced by about 37% since 2005.
Do you agree that the printing operations include more than printing watchtowers and awakes? So do magazines contain fewer pages nowadays? Yes! Does this mean that the presses are standing still? NO not at all. It only means they print more other stuff, and i repeat,.. are not reducing printing operations. As example I mentioned the NWT in over 115 languages compared with only 45 a decade ago, their biblestudyaid 'What does the bible really teach' in over 145 languages. And the release of more brochures and tracts.
Again you make an assertion without offering any evidence. Your assertion is that the array of publications alone is greater now than it was "in previous years." Which "previous year" are you talking about? Where are your statistics? Can you quantify the number of publications on offer in that year versus the number of publications on offer now?
Ofcourse i can... here a list for the last 10 yrs
2013
"Be courageous and strong....Jehovah your God is with you." (Joshua 1:9)
w-E * Watchtowers- The Watchtower Announcing Jehovah's Kingdom Public Edition (reduced from 32 pages to 16 pages, January 1, 2013)
- The Watchtower Announcing Jehovah's Kingdom Simplified Study Edition
g-E * Awake (reduced from 32 pages to 16 pages, January 2013)
es-13E * Examining the Scriptures Daily
yb13 * Yearbook
4413 - 2013 Yearbook of Jehovah's Witnesses--On Compact Disc
ca13 * Calendar
Theocratic Ministry School Schedule- Theocratic Ministry School Review Answer Sheet for weeks of Jan 7-Feb 25, 2013
- March 4, through April 29
- May 6 through June 24
- September 2 through October 28
- 2013 Theocratic Ministry School Assignment Form
Our Kingdom Ministry
Circuit Assembly Program
Special Assembly Day Program
Memorial Invitation
Jehovah's Witnesses District Convention Program and Invitation
District Convention Handbill
Illustrated Bible Story: Joseph in the Land of Egypt
Illustrated Bible Story: Joseph Saves Lives
yi-E 4/13 Youths - What Will You Do With Your Life?
New Assembly Releases: (Names subject to change as actual releases are obtained)
Imitate Their Faith (208 page book)
How to be happy in life? (32 pages - Made for Jews)
My first Bible lessons (Brochure)
DVD: The return of the prodigal son
How do you view the Bible? (Tract)
How do you view the future? (Tract)
What is the key to happy family life? (Tract)
Who really controls the world? (Tract)
Will suffering ever end? (Tract)Hospital Liaison Committee Network (HLC) for Jehovah's Witnesses (UK)
Medical Alternatives to Blood Transfusion (UK)
Care Plan for Surgery in Jehovah's Witnesses
2013 Application For Temporary Volunteer Program A-19-E
INSTRUCTIONS FOR CIRCUIT ACCOUNTING
BRAILLE PUBLICATIONS LIST March 2013
WATCHTOWER PUBLICATIONS LIST March 2013
jw.org online articles:
Seeing God’s Word in My Language (regarding services for the deaf)
Can the Devil Control Humans?
What Book Is Caleb Reading?
JW's; Do You Ban Certain Movies, Books, or Songs?
Video for children: How to Beat a Bully Without Using Your Fists!
Video for children: Lesson 6: Please and Thank You
2013 Circuit Visit Video presentation
Sing to Jehovah - Vocal Renditions - Disc 3 - Update 9
Sing to Jehovah - Vocal Renditions - Disc 1 - Update 1
2012"Your word is truth." (John 17:17)
w-E * The Watchtowers- The Watchtower Announcing Jehovah's Kingdom Simplified Study Edition
g-E * Awake!
yb-12E * Yearbook
es-12E * Examining the Scriptures Daily [Individual Days are here ]
ca12 * Calendar
km * Our Kingdom Ministry's
Who Are Doing Jehovah's Will Today? [Brochure] 6660Good News From God! [Brochure] 6659Become Jehovah's Friend - Listen, Obey, and Be Blessed [DVD] 9279"Walk by Faith Not by Sight" [DVD] 9272'Safeguard Your Heart' District Convention Audio
Official Report on Hurricane Sandy released from jw.org
2013 Service Year Annual Meeting Program - Official News
Theocratic Ministry School ScheduleMemorial Invitation
Watch Tower Publications Index 2012
Disaster Preparedness Plan Manual
Instructions For Kingdom Hall Operating Committee AccountingWatchtower Library 2012
Developing A Blood Conservation Care Plan For Jehovah's Witness Patients with Malignant Disease
2011“Take refuge in the name of Jehovah” (Zep 3:12)
w-E * The Watchtower- The Watchtower Announcing Jehovah's Kingdom Simplified Study Edition
g-E * Awake!
yb-11E * Yearbook
es-11E * Examining the Scriptures Daily
ca11 * Calendar
km * Our Kingdom Ministry's or km * Our Kingdom Ministry's (January -> September)
ld * Listen to God
ll * Listen to God and Live Forever
yp-1 * Questions Young People Ask - Answers That Work, Volume 1
Theocratic Ministry School Schedule
Memorial Invitation
Literature and Magazine Request Guideline Manual (54 pages)
Durable Power of Attorney for Health Care (Britain)
2010‘Love endures all things. Love never fails’ (1Co 13:7, 8)
w-E * The Watchtower- The Watchtower Announcing Jehovah's Kingdom Simplified Study Edition (monthly, July 15, 2010) In PDF and EPUB.
g * Awake!
yb-10E * Yearbook
es-10E * Examining the Scriptures Daily
ca10 * Calendar
jr * God’s Word for Us Through Jeremiah
lc * Was Life Created?
lf * The Origin of Life - Five Questions Worth Asking
ph * The Pathway to Peace and Happiness
rk * Real Faith - Your Key to a Happy Life
ks-10E * 'Shepherd the Flock of God' (Revised version)
Theocratic Ministry School Schedule
2009“Bear thorough witness to the good news” (Ac 20:24)
w-E * The Watchtower
g-E * Awake!
yb-09E * Yearbook
ca09 * Calendar
km * Our Kingdom Ministry's
bm * The Bible - What Is Its Message?
bt * “Bearing Thorough Witness” About God’s Kingdom
pc * Lasting Peace and Happiness - How to Find Them
sn * Sing to Jehovah sn * [Large Print] sn * (Sheet Music) (Vocal Renditions)
Theocratic Ministry School Schedule
2008“Stand firm and see the salvation of Jehovah” (Ex 14:13)
w-E * The Watchtower- The Watchtower Announcing Jehovah’s Kingdom Public Edition (monthly, January 1, 2008)
- The Watchtower Announcing Jehovah’s Kingdom Study Edition (monthly, January 15, 2008)
g-E * Awake!
yb-08E * Yearbook
ca08 * Calendar
km * Our Kingdom Ministry's
lv * “Keep Yourselves in God’s Love”
yp-2 * Questions Young People Ask - Answers That Work, Volume 2
Theocratic Ministry School Schedule
Dress & Grooming for Visitors Touring Bethel (2008)
Care Plan for Surgery in Jehovah's Witnesses
2007“The great day of Jehovah is near” (Zep 1:14)
w-E * The Watchtower
g-E * Awake!
yb-07E * Yearbook
ca07 * Calendar
km * Our Kingdom Ministry's
cf * “Come Be My Follower”
Theocratic Ministry School Schedule
Medical Alternatives to Blood Transfusion
Hospital Liaison Committee Network (HLC) for Jehovah's Witnesses
2006“We must obey God as ruler rather than men” (Ac 5:29)
w-E * The Watchtower
g-E * Awake! (monthly with more emphasis on Bible, January 2006)
yb-06E * Yearbook
ca06 * Calendar
km * Our Kingdom Ministry's
bi12 * New World Translation of the Holy Scriptures
jd * Live With Jehovah’s Day in Mind
re * Revelation - Its Grand Climax At Hand!
Jehovah's Witnesses - Organized to Share the Good News (DVD)
Theocratic Ministry School Schedule
Children's Identity Card - Australia - for JW's
2005“My help is from Jehovah” (Ps 121:2)
w-E * The Watchtower
g-E * Awake!
yb-05E * Yearbook
ca05 * Calendar
km * Our Kingdom Ministry's
bh - What Does the Bible Really Teach?
od - Organized to Do Jehovah’s Will
sp - Spirits of the Dead - Can They Help You or Harm You? Do They Really Exist?
we - When Someone You Love Dies
All Suffering Soon to End!
Theocratic Ministry School Schedule
Talks:
Questions -Three Brothers From Bethel
2004“Keep on the watch ... Prove yourselves ready” (Mt 24:42, 44)
w-E * The Watchtower
g-E * Awake!
yb-04E * Yearbook
ca04 * Calendar
km * Our Kingdom Ministry's
kp - Keep on the Watch!
my * My Book of Bible Stories
Good News for All People
Shining as Illuminators in the World (revised) (For Regular Pioneer School Participants)
Theocratic Ministry School Schedule
2003“Draw close to God, and he will draw close to you” (Jas 4:8)
w-E * The Watchtower
g-E * Awake!
yb-03E * Yearbook
ca03 * Calendar
km * Our Kingdom Ministry's
gl * “See the Good Land”
Young People Ask - How Can I Make Real Friends (DVD)
lr * Learn From the Great Teacher
Theocratic Ministry School Schedule -
cedars
Eldenno
Do you agree that the printing operations include more than printing watchtowers and awakes? So do magazines contain fewer pages nowadays? Yes! Does this mean that the presses are standing still? NO not at all.
That is appauling argumentation. Of course the Society prints more than simply magazines, but (1) the Society prints more magazines than anything else, and (2) magazines offer a measurable metric by which we can determine the printing demands based on the circulation figures. As I've already mentioned, you cannot compare printing, say, Bibles with printing magazines, because an average publisher only requires one Bible every few years whereas new magazines are released every month. The same is true of books and brochures.
Saying "does this mean that the presses are standing still" is a ridiculous statement. I never said the presses are standing still. You are attempting to use an exaggeration to drive home your point.
As to the "evidence" you have presented - all you have done is spam this forum with a list of new convention releases for the past 10 years. That is no proof of the volume of printing entailed by the publications, or how many publications are available in any given year. Heck, you've even included DVDs on your copy-and-paste list when the argument surrounds printing.
It seems you dismiss evidence you don't like, exaggerate the arguments of your opponents to make them appear ridiculous, and produce irrelevant information to support your assertions. Who does that remind me of?
Cedars
-
Eldenno
@Cedars
something you said in a previous post,....
Rather, the 37% reduction in monthly magazine printing is necessitated by the imbalance in contributions caused by stagnating publisher numbers in wealthy countries (with internet) and growing publisher numbers in poor countries (without).
By saying this it looks like you are trying to say that in countries with internet there is a significant decline in publishers. Furthermore you think this is caused by internet penetration and access. i dont think that slow growth or a slight decline is caused by the Internet but rather by a secular society, certain standard of living etc. etc. Anyway here i have a list of some countries with high Internet penetration and the nr of publishers in 2000 and 2013.
Western Internet penetrated countries
2000 2013
Australia 60.947 66.023 +5076
Austria 20.458 20.923 +465
Belgium 25.647 25.311 -336
Britain 126.297 135.654 +9357
Canada 111.173 114.792 +3619
Denmark 14.885 14.411 -474
Finland `20.120 18.795 -1325
France 115.050 124.029 +8979
Germany 165.924 164.871 -1053
Greece 27.575 29.098 +1523
Ireland 4.611 6.085 +1474
Italy 228.778 247.251 +18.473
Japan 221.364 217.154 -4210
South Korea 87.511 100.203 +12.692
Luxembourg 1850 2.097 +247
Netherlands 31.089 30.226 -863
Norway 9.940 11.141 +1201
Poland 125.287 125.485 +198
Portugal 47.555 49.450 +1895
Romania 38.659 40.147 +1488
Russia 114.284 168.618 +54.334
Sweden 23.296 22.380 -916
Switserland 17.971 18.251 +280
U.S 998.166 1.203.642 +205.476
Incl Hawai&
Alaska
total 2,638,437 Net gain 317.600=12% -
Pistoff
For me the question is CONTENT; the magazines, whether printed or viewed on a e-reader of any type, are smaller, and have a much smaller word count.
And the nature of the articles has changed, much more basic than any articles about doctrine from the past.
-
cedars
Eldenno
Rarely have I met a Watchtower apologist who dodges arguments with such agility as you, but I will do my best to keep pace.
it looks like you are trying to say that in countries with internet there is a significant decline in publishers.
I didn't say that at all. You are putting words in my mouth, and not for the first time in this exchange. What I said was that growth in wealthy countries with internet is stagnating (flattening out), which it is. Obviously correlation does not equal causation, and there are numerous social/economic factors at play as you point out. However, it MUST be harder for Watchtower to spread its propaganda in parts of the world where people have greater access to information, and that is precisely what we see in the publisher figures.
Anyway here i have a list of some countries with high Internet penetration and the nr of publishers in 2000 and 2013.
I have no idea where you got your penetration figures from, nor do you make any effort to provide your sources. I also fail to see how Japan and South Korea could be described as "Western Internet Penetrated Countries."
Here is my own research into internet penetration versus publisher growth, and I am happy to tell you where I got all my data from.
Document with source information: http://jwsurvey.org/wp-content/uploads/2012/12/2012-internet-v-growth-stats.pdf
Cedars
-
Gayle
Eldenno, the stats noted above verify that all those countries only on average increase less than 1% a year. Really, not much to boast about as population increases, including immigrants, would be around that at least.
The WTS does boast that they are increasing in their circulation because of their printing additional languages, when the mags are actually half the size now. That's like someone boasting that they are feeding more people than ever, but now everyone's plates are half the size.
-
frankiespeakin
Nice work Cedars,
I think the more we analyze the workings of this corporation the better. Know Thine Enemy!
http://en.wikiquote.org/wiki/Sun_Tzu:
Sun Tzu ??; Sun Zi ; (c. 6th century BCE) was a Chinese general , military strategist , and author of The Art of War , an immensely influential ancient Chinese book on military strategy; also known as Sun Wu (??; Sun Wu), and Chang Qing (??; Cháng Qing).
The Art of War [edit]
- Quotations from translations of the book The Art of War (6th century BC)
Ch. 1 [edit]
- ??,???????????,??????,?????,?????,
- All warfare is based on deception. Hence, when we are able to attack, we must seem unable; when using our forces, we must appear inactive; when we are near, we must make the enemy believe we are far away; when far away, we must make him believe we are near.
- Ch. 1
- Variant translations
- A military operation involves deception. Even though you are competent, appear to be incompetent. Though effective, appear to be ineffective.
- ????,????,????,????,????,????,????,?????
- If your enemy is secure at all points, be prepared for him. If he is in superior strength, evade him. If your opponent is temperamental, seek to irritate him. Pretend to be weak, that he may grow arrogant. If he is taking his ease, give him no rest. If his forces are united, separate them. If sovereign and subject are in accord, put division between them. Attack him where he is unprepared, appear where you are not expected.
- Ch. 1
- ????
- Hold out baits to entice the enemy. Feign disorder, and crush him.
- Ch. 1
- ????
- Pretend inferiority and encourage his arrogance.
- Ch. 1
- ???:????,????,????,??????
- ????????,????;????????,?????
- The general who wins the battle makes many calculations in his temple before the battle is fought. The general who loses makes but few calculations beforehand.
- Ch. 1
- ????,????,??;?????,????,??;
- The general that hearkens to my counsel and acts upon it, will conquer: let such a one be retained in command! The general that hearkens not to my counsel nor acts upon it, will suffer defeat: — let such a one be dismissed!
- Ch. 1
- ????
- If your opponent is of choleric temperament, seek to irritate him.
- Ch. 1
Ch. 2 [edit]
- ??????,???????
- Where the army is, prices are high; when prices rise the wealth of the people is exhausted.
- Ch. 2
