I always thought Jehovah's ways were supposed to be an *improvement* on what human laws were, that Jehovah had *higher* standards than Worldly™ or secular Superior Authorities™.
I guess not, huh?
Open letter Re: Mr. Bowen, Mrs. Anderson
by Prime 91 Replies latest watchtower child-abuse
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Honesty
Prime is one of the JW PR reps from the TOPIX JW forum.
Of course, the 'Prime' here is not to be confused with the topix poster called 'Prime.'
Right.
I forget what online handle she is currently using on TOPIX.
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jgnat
A small point on how the courts deal with the "two witness" rule when an assault happens in private, and only the victim and the perpetrator know what really went on. Acceptable as a "second witness" is physical evidence such as bodily fluids, fibers, hair, video, fingerprints. Hence, rape kits.
Elders are not equipped to collect untainted physical evidence.
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OnTheWayOut
The Watchtower Society doesn't have the right to ask more of the elders than what's legally and scripturally required of them.
Jehovah's Witnesses require more from the elders than the federal government or the scriptures all the time.
The elders are expected to use common sense. There are multiple instances where the elders have involved the police in response to domestic abuse, regardless of what's legally required of them. I've been witness to more than one.
No. In every single instance of "alledged abuse," the elders are expected to call Watchtower and follow specific instructions. If you have seen them involving the police, I imagine they were actually following instructions. If not, good for them doing the right thing.
Watchtower is ALWAYS ALWAYS ALWAYS about protecting the organization first and the victims come second to that. Sometimes, protecting predators comes ahead of victims because they fear the damage to the organization if they don't.
It is not going beyond the scriptures to encourage and comfort an alledged victim and encourage and accompany them to the authorities. And they don't have to know that the allegations are true or prove them at the mouth of two witnesses to do just that. They are not sullying the accused person's reputation if they do that, the alledged victim is doing that.
Protect the children first, let God protect "His" organization.
I would say that the correct safety measure to put in place would be to absolutely tell parents to NEVER EVER work in recruiting with anyone except their parents. But I know that would never happen. They love to encourage the teens to regular pioneer even before adulthood.
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Vidiot
jgnat - "It's simple. If an elder suspects abuse, report to the secular authorities, regardless of the jurisdiction. It doesn't matter if it is hearsay. All the elder has to do is report what he has seen and heard. The police do the investigating. Police have special powers of investigation not available to private citizens. In the case of child abusers it is important to collect evidence before the abuser is alerted that they are being investigated.
All moot; no matter how sensible and justified the arguments are for reporting to the secular authorities, the bottom line is that - as far as the WTS is concerned - the police, the legal system, the child welfare system, and everything else are all "tainted" from being part of "This Old System of Things"(TM).
The WTS will never, ever fully accept that anything in "Satan's World" could possibly do a better job than they themselves in dealing with this or any other problem; they'd fight this tooth and nail (no matter the outcome) for that single reason alone.
And they have many, many more reasons than that to keep fighting...
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Prime
You are so full of it, Prime.
It's simple. If an elder suspects abuse, report to the secular authorities, regardless of the jurisdiction. It doesn't matter if it is hearsay. All the elder has to do is report what he has seen and heard. The police do the investigating.
Police have special powers of investigation not available to private citizens. In the case of child abusers it is important to collect evidence before the abuser is alerted that they are being investigated. Elders, if they do their own investigation before or in tandem with a police investigation, (say, for example calling the person in for a Judicial Committee meeting) might inadvertently tip off the perpetrator and frustrate the investigation.
If you think I'm wrong, make an accusation against someone to any adult you deem responsible, and see if the person you're speaking to goes to the police for you if they have no legal responsibility to do so. Some states mandate certain professionals with a duty to report suspected child abuse because of the contact they have with children. A medical professional (physician, psychiatrist, psychologist) through the course of their practice may notice physical, psychological or emotional signs of abuse. A school teacher may notice a student is extremely withdrawn and appears to be disturbed. This could be because of problems at home.
An elder does not have anymore contact with other people's children than anyone else. As for “investigating,” all an elder does is confront the person that's being accused. If the law mandates clergy as a “professional” applicable to child abuse reporting laws, confronting an abuser is within reason and a person’s legal rights. “Calling the person in for a judicial committee meeting” is not part of an investigation. Some states require that a report is to be made within 24 hours.Idaho Code § 16-1605
Any person having reason to believe that a child has been abused, abandoned, or neglected shall report or cause a report to be made within 24 hours.In such a case, a report would be made before calling the person in for a judicial committee meeting.
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wha happened?
yawn
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Simon
Prime is a troll - any normal person knows child molesters should be reported - no exceptions.
It doesn't matter if it's the law or not, that's what sensible people and reputable organisations do.
Prime is a 'prime' example of WTS logic and reasoning and weasly words to try and excuse their responsibility. One minute they think they are princes on earth that will rule and judge people and next they are scrambling around looking for loopholes to excuse their inaction.
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Prime
Prime is a troll - any normal person knows child molesters should be reported - no exceptions.
It doesn't matter if it's the law or not, that's what sensible people and reputable organisations do.
Prime is a 'prime' example of WTS logic and reasoning and weasly words to try and excuse their responsibility. One minute they think they are princes on earth that will rule and judge people and next they are scrambling around looking for loopholes to excuse their inaction.
I believe that every instance of abuse as well other crimes should be reported to the authorities whether it's the law or not. If you're a hearsay witness, you're potentially being used for something illegal.
https://www.childwelfare.gov/systemwide/laws_policies/statutes/report.cfm
This factsheet discusses laws that impose penalties, in the form of either fines or jail time or both, on mandatory reporters who fail to report cases of suspected child abuse and neglect as required by the reporting laws. State laws also may impose penalties on any person who knowingly makes a false report of abuse or neglect. Summaries of laws for all States and U.S. territories are included.
Unless you're aware of a prior complaint against a person, or an adult victim appears to be traumatized, it's the responsibility of an adult witness to collaborate with authorities. That's all I'm stating. It isn't just "WTS logic" to give concern to false reporting if punishment for such a thing has been incorporated into law. -
Simon
Unless you're aware of a prior complaint against a person, or an adult victim appears to be traumatized, it's the responsibility of an adult witness to collaborate with authorities. That's all I'm stating. It isn't just "WTS logic" to give concern to false reporting if punishment for such a thing has been incorporated into law.
More weasel words designed to sound reasonable but basically are an excuse to do nothing:
If there is a prior complaint or not, it should be reported. The complaint may be another incident of abuse. All the more reason to report persistent and repeat abusers. Are you seriously saying "oh, he's done this before ... no need to call anyone about it" (!)
An adult victim will likely always be traumatized - that isn't a reason not to report it. More likely they have come for support to report it.
We're not talking about a witness to the abuse, but someone who has learnt of the abuse. More 'get-out' clauses for you?
And collaborate? Of course ... but not to 'report' eh? Only answer questions if they come asking, don't go volunteering information - protect the organisation at all costs (and the pedophile).
It is not for anyone to decide what is 'false reporting' (whatever you imagine that is) but to report the allegation so it can be investigated by people who are trained to do so.
That means not wanna-be-judges who are really janitors or window-washers in polyester suits.