Atheism and the delusion of meaning

by Laika 69 Replies latest jw friends

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  GoodGuyGreg

  I'm sorry, OP, but I don't see the problem you're trying to describe.

  Yes, you're right: Objectively, there is no meaning or purpose to this universe. You being you or I being me is just an accident, and happily we happened to live in parts of the world where we've got enough of a surplus that we can spend time clicking away on a computer keyboard having this discussion.

  The fact is, that no matter your world view, you create meaning for yourself. You choose to believe some things and reject other things, and so you build a value system. Not being blind to the fact that my life doesn't really matter in the long run doesn't take away a iota of happiness for me, because I choose to do things I personally find meaningful. Caring for my family and my friends, seeing them strive for their goals and reach them brings me joy. I only have these years here - I don't even know how many. I make my life an adventure, and I'm glad to be joined by people I care for and who care for me. If that makes me a nihilist, then I don't really mind.
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  cantleave

  You are making the assumption that belief in God is necessary and that concepts like morality, purpose and meaning, are possible only if such a deity exists. You obviously feel that god is not only necessary for life and for it to have meaning and purpose. You are saying the universe does not establish purpose to our lives

  I totally disagree with your premise. We create our own meanings and purposes. This is much more significant "purpose" than one directed by a being that doesn’t even bother to communicate directly, unambiguously or coherently to its creation. In fact if you don’t create your own purpose and accept a purpose or meaning imposed by someone else, is that not slavery?

  The reality is we find it impossible for meaning to be imposed on us by someone else. I can’t make an event that has meaning for me create the same emotional state for you. The reason why is because you need to have experienced the event for yourself. The emotions and the interpretation of that event were processed by my brain, and it was my brain that created the memories that induce the nostalgia that is so important to me. Those memories that I possess will never have any meaning to you. That experience has value to ME, I cannot infer that value to you! Values cannot be imposed upon us because they must develop out of our character and our personality; so if meaning is derived from values, then meaning also cannot be imposed, by anyone or anything especially an invisible man / woman in the sky.

  Your concept of god has meaning for you because of a choice you have made, you cannot argue that the value or meaning your concept of god can be created for anyone else. The value you assign to the god delusion you possess cannot be inferred to anyone else.

  So if in your opinion a personal meaning or purpose is impossible and an objective meaning or purpose cannot exist without a god that is your opinion and has no relevance for anyone else. You may feel depressed by the thought that I do not share your delusion, but that is your problem and not mine! Even if I did find the randomness and eventual destruction of the universe depressing what does that change? Since when does a an individual adopt beliefs about the state of the world or the universe based upon what is least depressing?

  Meaning and purpose in life has no bearing on the reasonableness of either theism or atheism. If your concept of purposes is predicated on your belief in a god - good for you! I have many delusional friends who feel this way. However, I make my meaning around my friends, family and ambitions. I am fully content knowing that the conscious state I enjoy is only temporary and is a miraculous thing. I am one of very few entities to have enjoyed this state of consciousness and I am determined to make the most of it by making this life worthwhile to me, my family and anyone / anything else I can influence.
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  MrFreeze

  What is delusional about accepting the world for what it really is? To me it is delusional to think there is some magical eternal paradise and if you are deemed good enough by some completely arbitrary standards, you too can live forever in it. That's delusion.
• 

  designs

  Q(t2) = Q(t1) + Qin - Qout

  Charge Conservation in the Universe....sort of means alot
• 

  LisaRose

  I am not an atheist, but I believe reality is the opposite of what you are suggesting.

  As a brainwashed dub, I thought nothing mattered "ya know, cause this old system is doomed". So don't follow your dreams, get an education or pursue a hobby, because nothing matters but the preaching work, service and study. There will be plenty of time to do all those things in the new system, you can do whatever you want then. I belief most religions foster this notion that life means something only if you belief in God and _____(insert preferred religion here)____.

  I was older (45) before I left the organization. I had wasted so many years, doing things I hated and feeling guilty I couldn't do more things I hated. And I had done it for no reason, everything was a big lie, this system was not ending. I determined to make every last minute count. I ended my bad marriage, and married the love of my life, I started my own business, I pursued my passions, I did volunteer work. The point I am making is that without the delusion that God makes your life meaningful, you realize it is up to you to make something of your life, to make the world a better place for you having been in it. Religion is a crutch for some people, an excuse to do nothing.

  You do not need religion to make your life meaningful, your life is what you make of it, belief in God or not.
• 

  Captain Obvious

  The fact that you personally place value on the concept of meaning, has nothing to do with the question of whether or not your life has meaning.

  My particular brand of 'Secular Humanism' doesn't require me to try to find meaning in an old book that tells us we came from one couple, there's a god up there who's a real prick. My beliefs don't require me to make constant excuses for this god, or this book. When reading the bible, if one is to try to believe it, one must start making excuses for it right from Genesis 1:1 on. My beliefs make logical sense. The fact that I feel a meaning to my life has nothing to do with whether or not the meaning of my life has any effect on the universe at all. MY universe is made up of my family and those I love first, followed by my love for all other humans. That is something every one of us feels, even you pious folk. What's more, it's a product of our evolution.

  The fact that the universe has no purpose isn't a bother at all. Actually, I'm glad. I'm now free to do what I like. That doesn't mean being selfish, it means I don't have to dedicate my life to anything other than my loved ones. That my friend, is the beauty of it all. Do you think your beloved creator would rather you dedicate your life to whatever his favourite humans dictate is a way to serve him? Would he/it not rather you spend your energy and resources helping those around you, enjoying your life? Not worrying about whether he approves of you enough to NOT kill you for not doing what his silly book of riddles says...?

  If this issue is the last one that holds you back from letting go of god, then I wish you well in sorting it out. You will. If you think that ANYTHING you could do could have any effect on the universe, then you are still stuck in the same place. If you think ANYTHING you could do could have any effect on a creator of this universe, then again you are still stuck in the same place.

  We're not so different, you and I.
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  This_suit_doesnt_fit

  Wow, some great rebuttals to the OP!

  Perhaps we are missing an obvious point. What if the OP has no feelings to direct his actions, no natural values, no innate self worth that creates the meaning most of us take for granted? If a person cannot comprehend personal values naturally, without the coercion of religion, then maybe something is missing. He denies meaning in everything because he doesnt feel it himself.

  Maybe he needs others to tell him what to do, what to think, what to feel, what to care about, and what is meaningful because he does not understand them naturally. It sounds like the thought process of a sociopath. He says, I feel nothing & anyone who claims they do is delusional.

  Anyone who says "You are just a series of random events, you are no more valuable than a dog turd" may be a sociopath. Whatever causes this thought process, it is not mental & emotional health. His thinking & beliefs have nothing to do with religion & everything to do with a lack of natural feeling, empathy, and meaning in his life.

  Seriously, "you are no more valuable than a dog turd"= no empathy or natural feelings for others.
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  designs

  Must be having a bad Saturday, time to go for a nice hike in mother nature.
• 

  Satanus

  Christianity can create sociopathy in that it destroys the innate core value as a person. Original sin is said to have rendered man into a state of total depravity at his core. The solution:

  'Regeneration is the answer to the problem of man`s depravity. Because of Adam`s sin man is counted as guilty before God. Man is not capable of doing what is spiritually good. Man has inherited corruption. It is therefore, necessary to take into account certain questions such as, what is regeneration. Does regeneration accomplish anything? Does man have any role in it?

  Grudem defines regeneration as “a secret act of God in which he imparts new spiritual life to us” (Grudem 699). McCune writes “Regeneration is the instantaneous, spiritual impartation of spiritual life to the spiritually dead” (McCune 49). The phrase, “being born again” (Jn.3:3) refers to regeneration (cf.Titus 3:5).There is human responsibility to our conversion, such as confession, working out our own salvation, and our perseverance in our Christian walk. Yet when it comes to regeneration, God alone is working upon men. The apostle John teaches that only those Christ gave the right to become children of God, are reborn by a new birth that precedes from God the Father (Jn.1:12-13; 3:3-8).

  It is regeneration that enlivens us to respond in faith that saves because man left by himself, cannot choose to do what is good. This is the whole idea that explains that man is totally depraved and inclined to evil always. Regeneration takes God to draw us to himself through his Son, the Lord Jesus Christ. Therefore, when theologians talk about man as being totally depraved they mean “that man`s nature is corrupt, perverse, and sinful throughout” (Thomas 24).'

  A person comes to believe that they are incapable of originating anything good. They can't concieve that an atheist can be anything other than they themselves think that they are. It can take yrs to learn otherwise.

  S
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  DJS

  There are some excellent reponses to what I view as an absurbe premise. It doesn't really deserve a response. So I won't.