Atheism and the delusion of meaning (page 6)

Laika

ADCMS,

Thanks for your post. I'll try to take it on board.

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This thread may be beyond redemption but I don't think the argument was completely without merit (without the personal elements) and is at least worthy of discussion, so I'm going to try again, if it's still offensive, I'll give up:

This is the clip I referenced from Annie Hall, is young Alvy Singer's argument to his mother and doctor wrong? (Woody Allen is an atheist): http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=3Pa34orcwwA

"The point here is about meaning. Imagine the universe did come out of nothingness, by the big bang. Next comes the universe, that is now expanding and will eventually die, and say the life of the entire universe then is 30 billion years, that might seem like a long time, but placed between the eternity past and the eternity future, then the 30 billion year life of the universe is just a single sentence, well, no, actually like a single word, no actually like a single letter, actually even smaller than a full stop in an entire library, but even that is an exaggeration, maybe the greatest exaggeration ever! So, then, to find meaning in a life of an individual of 80 years, that is infinity insignificant. If we lived the life of Gandhi a million times over, or an extreme Hitler where we gassed every man, woman and child alive, any of those actions would be totally meaningless in the big picture of all that is." - What was wrong with this paragraph? If you say 'it feels like there is meaning, so I'm going to live as if there is' that seems fair enough to me, but to then say 'theists are deluded, they don't accept reality as it is' when you've confessed that you've created your own fake reality to get through your life, isn't that inconsistent?

And if life feels like it matters, why is it such an irrational leap of logic to believe that it does?

bohm

And if life feels like it matters, why is it such an irrational leap of logic to believe that it does?

So your basic argument is that the universe looks like it has no meaning, but since you feel like believing otherwise that should overwrite the evidence?

like, if i feel a man who walk at a velocity of 4mph in a train doing 100mph is moving at 104mph relative to the track, why shouldnt i believe that despite the evidence suggesting otherwise?

Laika

No Bohm, I think it is evidence, as I said to punkofnice: "We as humans intrinsically stive for meaning, so for us to be the product of a meaningless universe is inconsistent. The Christian philosopher Francis Schaeffer argued that this would be an evolutionary failure, like fish in a water world with no free gases evolving lungs, it would be inconsistent with their universe." But I'd like to add that it's not the sole reason I'm a believer.

AndDontCallMeShirley

And if life feels like it matters, why is it such an irrational leap of logic to believe that it does?

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No one has argued otherwise.

I think the "leap of logic" that you took is asserting that, because an atheist does not believe in the existence of god, it naturally follows they should not/cannot find any meaning in life, either. I'm not sure if you understand how illogical that is? It's like someone saying that their life can only have meaning if they believe the earth is flat, and having to acknowledge the earth is a sphere would only suck the joy out of their existence.

You connect belief in god with meaning in life, and if lack of belief in god exists, no meaning is possible. Why? What does one have to with the other?

Additionally, belief in which god gives life meaning? Hindus believe in the god Vishnu. I do not. Is my life devoid of meaning because I do not believe in Vishnu? I also reject that Thor is/was a real god. Is my life now meaningless? If a Hindu doesn't believe in the Christian god Yahweh, is their life empty and meaningless? If someone chooses to believe in Poseidan but not Zeus, are they better off? Is one any more rational than the next?

If you read over the posts made here by atheists, I think you'll find they not only view life as having tremendous meaning, they also have a healthier world view than many theists.

Life is so much better when you don't live in daily fear of a caustic god with a hair-trigger temper towards humanity.

EntirelyPossible

If you say 'it feels like there is meaning, so I'm going to live as if there is' that seems fair enough to me

Fair enough....

but to then say 'theists are deluded, they don't accept reality as it is'

Creationists certainly have.

when you've confessed that you've created your own fake reality to get through your life

And there's where you make the mistake. What fake reality? That I love my children? Is not true because I don't believe in God? Are the nice things I do really evil because I don't believe in God?

isn't that inconsistent?

You haven't been consistent so far....

No Bohm, I think it is evidence

It's not.

We as humans intrinsically stive for meaning, so for us to be the product of a meaningless universe is inconsistent.

Humans have thought there were fire breathing dragons and witches, so for us to live in a universe without them is inconsistent.

Would you agree with that? If not, then it's obvious that just because humans look for something doesn't mean it must exist. If you do agree with it, then evidence proves you wrong as we live in a universe where I an not waking up in a pile of money with Emmy Rossum and Jessica Alba next to me.

ingimar

Someone has too much time on their hands! I am too busy enjoying my life to even let these silly thoughts creep into my delusional, ignorant but happy brain. I do know that when I am laying on my death bed that I will leave this life a lot more content and fullfilled than Laika.

bohm

Leika: Have you previously posted under another account on this forum?

Laika

adcms: Belief in God creates it's own absurdities but a lack of meaning isn't one of them, it doesn't matter which God you believe in, belief in any God grants meaning to your life.

EP: Beautiful woman exist, so the fact you want sex with them is consistent with your universe. ;)

AndDontCallMeShirley

Theists ignore this fact:

In human history there are at least 30,000 distinct, identifiable "gods" (some religions, like Hinduism, believe in millions of gods).

This means a person has, at best, a .00003% chance of being correct in their choice. This assumes that even one god exists.

How can this dismal prospect contribute anything meaningful to what a person attaches to the here and now?

AndDontCallMeShirley

it doesn't matter which God you believe in, belief in any God grants meaning to your life.

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I wonder if an Incan worshiper, about to have a knife plunged into their chest and their still-beating heart ripped from their body, shared your sentiments?

What if the meaning belief in a certain god reults in is that the zealot should murder his fellow humans by the thousands to please his god*? Is it still a valuable commodity because it gives the zealot "meaning"? Or, maybe mass murder can simply be chocked up to being a silly little "absurdity" that goes along naturally with belief.

* if you think this is hyperbole, study Islam.

Atheism and the delusion of meaning

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