Do beleivers have a problem with GODS silence in this technological/communication age ? and if not why not ? ?

by smiddy 55 Replies latest jw friends

  • cofty
    cofty

    AA - The clue is in the word "spontaneous". There is no comparison between the belief that cheese produces mice and the transition from geochemistry to biochemistry. The precise details of how it happened are still being researched but ultimately it was just electrons doing their thing.

    Perhaps instead of reading Ken Ham you could do a Google search of "scholarly articles for geochemistry to biochemistry".

    Atheists do not reject god because of fear of final judgement. That is just something believers say to make themselves feel less silly for fearing a final judgement.

    Fernando - Humans don't cause tsunamis.

    Tammy - Please answer QCMBRs challenge. "... simply by providing some revealed information that is factually correct, generally useful and exceeds the intellect of the revealer "

  • punkofnice
    punkofnice

    cofty -

    Fernando - Humans don't cause tsunamis.

    Unless one believes in the conspiricy theories like HAARPand chemtrails.

  • Fernando
    Fernando

    The many examples that could be provided of revealed information, that is factually correct, generally useful, and exceeds the intellect of the person revealed to (not the revealer), are of use or useful only to those who can relate due to an overlap in worldviews.

    If it is outside our worldview it is near impossible to grasp the significance no matter how detailed, plain, factual, useful or intelligent the explanation and implications. It may as well be written in a foreign language. (John 3:12; 5:38,47; 6:36,64; 8:45; 20:25; Luke 22:67; Acts 13:41; Hab 1:5)

    We see this demonstrated daily in our family and friends trapped in the Watchtower. You can show them many examples of what is wrong with the Watchtower but they remain irrelevant or meaningless until the hearer is ready to see (discern).

    The very best proof is to have and recognise a personal experience of such revelation. Then one is able to relate to the community or diaspora of otherwise unconnected and dispersed believers who have "independently" had the same revelation.

    This is available to anyone that wants it and is willing, eager and comitted to follow the map hidden in plain sight throughout scripture. Unfortunately most of us, myself included, have to be pushed through intense adversity to seek out and find God via his message or map the "unabridged gospel".

    Believers who read CoC and ISoCF can see that Ray Franz independently had the same revelation they had of the "gospel of grace" and its wide ranging implications - for example in relation to "organisational salvation" and "legalism".

    As an ordinary person of no special merit, who was blissfully asleep and ignorant, I have personally had detailed revelation, that meets the above criteria, yet will not satisfy persons who do not share or grasp a non-religious, faith oriented "unabridged gospel" worldview.

    Examples of topics:

    • Legalism, moralism, ethnocentrism and gnosticism
    • Faith
    • Spirituality
    • Law vs grace
    • Faith vs works
    • Apostasy
    • Prophecy
    • The "unabridged gospel"
    • Implications and applications of the "unabridged gospel"
    • Judeo-Christian-Muslim commonalities as a roadmap to peace
    • Transpersonal Psychology
    • Higher dimensions and consciousness

    On page 316 of CoC (2004) is an 8 point list of beliefs (so called wrong teachings) regarding the Watchtower organisation and its teachings, that all JWs, who pursue, embrace and yield to the unabridged "gospel of grace", eventually come to independently through revelation despite draconian consequences. Powerful but unimpressive and at least partly meaningless if one has not personally had such revelation.


    (Why do followers of the Watchtower religion call themselves “publishers of the Good News” whilst unfamiliar with the “Good News” according to Paul, Moses, Isaiah and Psalms?)

  • tec
    tec

    Please answer QCMBRs challenge. "...simply by providing some revealed information that is factually correct, generally useful and exceeds the intellect of the revealer"

    Now how can you know what exceeds the intellect of another person?

    Many things on this forum have been shared that were received in spirit, that exceed the intellect of the sharer and are correct... but until science proves it, people will not believe it. It will be called, "Balderdash. Sheer mysticism and wishful thinking"

    Life is generally useful. Knowledge of a spiritual world (reality) is generally useful, especially if we learn to listen for and to the Spirit teaching and guiding us into truth and life, and away from harm.

    The proof of anything revealed or received however, as Fernando said... is personal, and from the Spirit. But in that way, anyone can verify the truth (or not) of something another person shares. One may also test against love, and against what is written (be that scripture, or the gospels, or another source of writing) But that last one probably only matters to those who believe or who are seeking, or who hold scipture as a possible source of evidence (not proof).

    But if you want an example of something spoken to me that is factually correct (I verified it); generally useful (definitely useful to me), and outside of my knowledge (I did not know it) ... then I have one for you. Simple and straighforward thing... no wriggle room.

    **

    I had been using triscuits for partaking (communion) at home every day. They were the only thing in my cupboard that had no yeast in them, so I figured they would be fine. Now, I had started feeling that I should bake yeastless bread (just water and flour) and make my own each day. But I am so lazy that I ignored that feeling and just continued with the triscuits. The only thing I did do with them was brush off as much salt as I could before partaking.

    One night, my Lord woke me to share the evening meal, the bread and wine, body and blood. It was four or five in the morning? Technically, that is morning, lol... but for me that is the middle of the night. I got up, went to the kitchen and left all the lights off because I did not want to wake anyone. I poured a sip of wine, and I got a triscuit and sat at the table. Spoke some words and gave thanks for the bread (body of Christ), but before I ate, I heard my Lord speak to me, very distinct and clear:

    "There are bugs in your triscuits."

    Now my heart nearly pounded from my chest. Not because my Lord spoke to me. He speaks to me often. But because of WHAT He spoke to me. Bugs and me... we don't get along so well ; ) Again, it was totally dark and I could not see anything.

    Anyway, I didn't do anything about it until after I got up for real the next morning. I went to the cupboard, planning to simply throw the box away. I had no intention of checking to see if what my Lord spoke to me was true. He said it, I believed Him in faith, and I was just going to toss the box of triscuits.

    Then I hesitated, hearing that this is one that I could check to verifty. But I thought, isn't that a lack of faith? I believe you, I don't need to verify.

    I mean, I had the box in my hand, was on my way to the garbage. But being allowed to verify the truth of what He told me was for the next time that someone presented this question and challenge (Cofty I thought, since you are the one who kept asking me to say something that my Lord told me that I could not otherwise have known).

    So I took the plastic bag out, and thought I saw something, but the bag was pretty full, so hard to tell. I got a container from the cupboard and emptied the crackers into it, to search through them... and sure enough, I saw a couple of them in with the crackers. (I have since searched through my entire cupboard contents, and sealed anything open, but this box of triscuits was the ONLY thing, and my Lord is the One who told me)

    Then I threw them out, and waited for the next time you or someone else asked me, so that I share this with you.

    So something revealed (my Lord spoke to me specifically), that is factually true (I observed and verified it), generally useful (for me, regarding not eating something bad... and for others in being able to share some evidence - testimony that is not hearsay- to others about the Spirit speaking, and the usefulness of faith and listening to Him), and something outside my intellect (outside my knowledge, I did not know it).

    Peace to you, truly,

    tammy

  • ÁrbolesdeArabia
    ÁrbolesdeArabia

    Good Mornig My dear friend Cofty! I thought as simple as Qcmr puts it, what was the driving force of those electrons doing their things? It's a gigantic leap to believe "A Chaotic Force" and a pre-Life Earth end's up with Geochemistry transistioning into biochemistry! Can we allow him to speak since he is the one who so cleverly attacked us I.D.er's, me and you will have our time, it's going to be like my chess lessons with Dr.Merli! argggg!

    Was it a blind and chaotic (No God, No direction, just pure chance) forces that drove the single-complex cells from nothingness (the primordial soup) or did they come from space? Even Dawkins had said that those single cell buggers might have come from Space? Yet we begin to go circular again, where did those single-cells come from out in Space? Where they complex like single-cell life is or was it goooo?

    Qcmr should explain in his own words how life evolved from Blind-Chaos, it sounds like a good bed-time story I would enjoy. Much better than a alien force terraforming Earth and planting life here to develop. Life in our everyday experience teaches us that complex structures do not come from Chaos, maybe in Qcmr's world everything magically does? Who is the one with more faith, us our him?

    "AA - The clue is in the word "spontaneous". There is no comparison between the belief that cheese produces mice and the transition from geochemistry to biochemistry. The precise details of how it happened are still being researched but ultimately it was just electrons doing their thing.

  • cantleave
    cantleave

    AA you obviously have absolutely no understanding of either biochemistry or abiogenesis.

    Blind chance has nothing to do with it. Chemistry follows well defined rules based on the sharing, exchange or transference of electrons. These reactions often require specific conditions including catalysts. Once those conditions are met the reaction between specific atomic or molecular species can occur.

    Those conditions required to synthesise the first nucleotides could be extra-terrestrial - we don't know. However, it would appear that the correct condition may exist in deep oceanic hydrothermal vents and there are some interesting hypothesese based on these unusual environments.

    The bottom line is this, complexity arises from simplicity. The idea of a highly complex system arising from nothing (i.e God) is highly improbable whereas a complex system evolving from simple atomic species is not only highly probably it is our every day observable experience..

  • cofty
    cofty

    Tammy - Risible!

    AA - There are fascinating answers to all of your questions, and to other questions you haven't thought of yet.

    I doubt life came from space - Dawkins doesn't think so either but don't let the context of what he said bother you.

    It had nothing to do with goo or with soup.

    The problem is you don't sound like somebody who is the least bit interested in answers so I won't bother.

  • cantleave
    cantleave

    I am so happy that your lord is concerned about your trisquits Tammy.......

  • tec
    tec

    Risible!

    Maybe ; )

    But true nonetheless, meeting your requirements, and not complicated at all.

    I am so happy that your lord is concerned about your trisquits Tammy.......

    See, you're moving the goalpost, and making this thread about something other than communication. The OP is about communication and the apparent 'silence' of God, and how believers feel about that. You guys are making it about something else.

    Christ did not MAKE me do anything; He simply spoke to me... and what I did was my choice (free will); just as it was my choice to put faith in what He told me, and listen to Him.

    The people who cause harm to their fellow man such as in your photo (and that is caused by the actions or inactions of man) are those who have not listened, and do not want to listen. That does not mean Christ cannot speak, as in converse, with those who do listen and do belong to Him.

    As He promised that He would, and that His sheep would listen to His voice.

    (It's not like this is the only thing He has ever communicated, CL. This is just one simple thing that met the requirements that were being asked)

    Peace,

    tammy

  • cofty
    cofty

    The very definition of hubris.

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